Author, attorney, and self-advocate Haley Moss explains autistic joy, and how to be supportive of it.
Haley Moss was diagnosed with autism at age 3. She graduated with her Juris Doctor from the University of Miami School of Law in 2018, and graduated from the University of Florida in 2015 with Bachelors degrees in Psychology and Criminology. She is a renowned visual pop artist and the author of Middle School: The Stuff Nobody Tells You About and A Freshman Survival Guide for College Students with Autism Spectrum Disorders: The Stuff Nobody Tells You About. She also was the illustrator and a contributor for the Autism Women’s Network anthology What Every Autistic Girl Wishes Her Parents Knew. Her writing has been featured in HuffPost, Teen Vogue, Elite Daily, The Mighty, and other websites and publications.
For more about Haley’s work: https://haleymoss.com/
For Haley’s show Spectrumly Speaking: https://differentbrains.org/spectrumly-speaking-page/
Here is an example of the emotion wheel Haley mentions: https://feelingswheel.com/
For more about host Dr. Jennie Trocchio: https://www.drjennie.co/
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FULL TRANSCRIPTION
Note: the following transcription was automatically generated. Some imperfections may exist.
DR JENNIE TROCCHIO (JT):
Hello and welcome to Exploring Different Brains. I’m Dr Jennie Trocchio, and I am so excited to be your host for today’s episode where we’ll be talking all about autistic joy with our incredible guest, Haley Moss. I first learned about Haley when I saw a news article with the headline first openly autistic attorney. I remember it so clearly because at least three different friends and colleagues sent it to me, saying, You have to see this. A little while later, I got to hear Haley on her own podcast talking with her mom about how they engaged with floor time when she was growing up, which, with my background in dir floor time, it just spoke to me on so many levels. Since then, we’ve had the chance to connect as both friends and colleagues through positive development, and I’ve been continually inspired by her perspective, her advocacy and her joy. So today, I am absolutely thrilled to talk to her about one of my favorite topics, autistic joy, what it is, how we can recognize it, and how we can nurture more of it in our lives and the lives of others. Haley, before we dive in, for anyone who might not know all about you, would you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
HALEY MOSS (HM):
Sure it’s great to get to be here, and I’m so excited just to get to spend some time chatting with you, for those of you who don’t know me, Hi, I’m Haley moss. I am an author, I am an attorney, I am an artist and advocate, and I’m autistic. That is basically who I am in a professional nutshell. So I’m the author of several books that help neurodivergent people at all ages and stages. I love getting to geek out about law and policy. I was a practicing attorney in my past life, before realizing education was something I felt I could make a bigger impact with. So most of my time is teaching professionals more so than being a professional. So it feels like even though I know I’m still a professional, it’s still very much a different role in my career, and I am just a geek about all things neurodiversity in my work life and in my personal life. I think a lot of people know this. I love to play video games. I love the Pokemon series. I love following sports that’s a little bit newer, because I’ve got to add new sports to my collection, and I also love fashion. And I just love getting to read. I love just being in things that make me feel excited and don’t usually require too much socializing. That’s what I’ve learned about myself the older that I get.
JT:
Amazing, amazing. And I love that you have joy in such a range of topics and areas. So I’m super excited to dive on in. You ready?
HM:
Ready when you are.
JT:
Alright. So Haley, I often think of joy as one of the most powerful emotions. It’s something that can ground us, connect us and even transform a moment from your perspective, how would you describe autistic joy? And are there ways you think autistic people might experience joy differently than others?
HM:
I am going to start with. The beginning is that autistic Joy feels different, at least from what I know, from my experience and what I’ve observed. I have no idea what it is and what it means and what it feels like to be neurotypical, but from many, many years of observing neurotypical people, I’m pretty sure their body does not perform joy like they smile, they’re happy to talk about something, but their body doesn’t feel their feelings the same way an autistic person might. So when I talk about joy as an autistic person, it’s a full body joy that your hands are moving. Your body feels you’re feeling so intensely. So when you see me with that happy, flappy hands, you know I am so excited that I cannot keep it to just my face in the way that neurotypical people are conditioned and socialized to perform joy. I think that’s kind of the big distinction for me. And also when we are passionate, as autistic people, myself included, we get really passionate about things even before we got started, we were talking just about something random, and you could see that passion even though it was something I wasn’t obviously special interest level passionate about that passion really shines through for a lot of people on the spectrum, and that, I think, makes it special. So that’s really what I wanted to focus on, is that there is that distinction in that you did mention how powerful joy is in grounding us and regulating us and so much more. And I think for autistic people too, it’s something that we try to moderate and regulate because it doesn’t come at the right time or doesn’t look the correct way. So I get a little nervous sometimes that our joy gets stifled because it doesn’t match other people’s expectations.
JT:
Oh, wow. Oh, that is so interesting. I love, I love, first of all, I love the thought of like, performing joy about how it just like, comes out through your whole body and but also, it makes me a little sad to think that sometimes you feel the need to stifle it because it doesn’t look like a quote, unquote, typical person who’s happy about something, but that’s I mean to me, that sounds like such a joyous moment to have your whole body just perform joy. And I think how cool is that? So that’s fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing that.
HM:
Of course, and also the jumping up and down stuff like, think about what it’s like to be excited about something when you’re a little kid and never quite losing that.
JT:
I mean, that sounds magical. Part of me wishes no one lost that, and we all got to jump up and down when we were feeling happy and joyful about something new or something exciting or something that we didn’t realize was right in front of us.
HM:
I get that way about going to Disney World in my 30s.
JT:
And I think so many people do, but I think you’re right. A lot of people feel like, No, I have to pretend like I’m just cool and I’m just standing here in line.
HM:
like, I’m going to Disney, not like, oh my god, I’m going to Disney. Like, your body is like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. Like, like, you feel like I am a grown adult. I am not supposed to do that, and I feel like that’s what’s so conditioned into so many of us. And for me, you tell me we’re going to Disney World, the first thing I’m going to be like is super, super excited, kind of like, when you see the guy who won the Super Bowl saying he’s going to Disney.
JT:
Oh man. Well, it really makes me wish that we all just had full permission to perform joy with our whole bodies every time we felt it. And what a happier place this would be, right?
HM:
Yeah, and not even thinking of it as a performance, because I think it’s that we’re expected to do that is perform, but really just letting your body and your mind feel something without setting an expectation for what that should feel or look like, like. Really feel your feelings, the highs and the lows. I think that’s something that is difficult in the autistic experience, that you really feel your feelings, but it’s also the thing that I really wouldn’t want to lose either. And I think a lot of people who are neurodivergent. Have that kind of crossroads that, yes, there’s something out there that can improve my quality of life or make the lows less low, but at the same time, it also takes away some of those better things, those highs that you want to feel your like. I would rather feel my feelings and have something leveled off, somewhere that’s just me like I do feel everything very intensely. I feel those lows really, really deeply, but I also feel those highs really, really deeply. And I don’t want to lose that full range of human experience.
JT:
Absolutely, absolutely. I think none of us want anyone to lose that full range.
HM:
Having that lower side really makes you feel that joy so much sweeter.
JT:
Exactly, if everything was pure joy, then you’d sort of lose the magic of it, right? You sort of need the lows to balance it all out, because it makes us appreciate the beautiful moments in life.
HM:
Exactly.
JT:
Wow. So you touched on a little bit of like, almost getting into therapeutic approaches, and how sometimes the joy is sort of like driven driven out of us, but in developmental approaches like dir floor time, they talk a lot about joining someone in what’s meaningful or interesting to them. So knowing that was a model that you and your family engaged in when you were young. How do you see joy fitting into that, especially about joining autistic people and things that light them up.
HM:
I think that’s really big with because the whole model of neuro adversity approaches and things like dir really is meeting someone in their world and joining in their world, and that, I think, also makes everyone else in somebody’s life a little bit more well rounded, because we don’t understand what we don’t understand if we recognize that this thing, even if we don’t quite get it, brings somebody a lot of excitement and passion and happiness. Who are we to say no? So my big thing on passions and joy and all that, as long as it’s not hurting somebody or another person, I am all for it. That is my big kind of boundary on interests, passions, Joy. So I will also tell people I collect Pokemon cards. I am not going to go scam third graders on the playground for I’m not hurting anybody. I don’t engage with minors. I don’t play with kids. I will buy and sell and trade cards with adults, I will go buy my own packs. I’m not running and mowing down people in a Costco to get stuff before it sells out, which you can see on the internet. It’s kind of scary, like, as long as I am happy and I’m not hurting somebody else, who is going to tell me that this was something that was more appropriate for the little ones or for the boys or what have you, that is kind. My approach on that, and I think when someone meets you where you are, they could see why you feel the way you do, and also you can learn all sorts of great skills at the same time. So having those interests being used in a way that a young person wants to engage with the world around them, and that the parents or the therapists or whoever else is involved can help that person in their life. I think that’s great. I’m all for it.
JT:
I love that. I love that. And something else you touched on was, you know, and I guess it goes in that bucket of like, the things we’re supposed to do, right? You’re not supposed to be too outwardly happy. But also sometimes it’s like you’re not supposed to be interested in things that are typically for younger kids or typically for older kids. And I love that you’re just saying it doesn’t matter who it’s supposed to be for if it brings someone joy in it, right,
HM:
Exactly as long as nobody’s getting hurt. That is my big qualifier. If you say you got joy from biting people, I would be a little concerned, excited, like you have to know when to draw the line. I feel like Annette is this for older kids, younger kids, kids, adults, traditionally something for boys, something traditionally for girls. I mean, that’s all made up anyway. At the end of the day, I’m sorry, that’s my term belief.
JT:
Yep, it’s, it’s marketing, right? It’s so much about marketing, but if it brings you joy, it brings you joy period. I love that. Okay, so what about the situations where an autistic person might find joy in something, but they want to experience it alone, so they don’t want others to join in? What would you suggest in those situations, and how can family members, peers or professionals, gently connect around that joy without intruding on it?
HM:
I think it’s important to understand why someone might want to enjoy something alone. Maybe it feels like there’s some kind of internalized shame or embarrassment around that, that someone might think you’re weird for it, because I have things that bring me joy that I don’t share with people that I love and people that I care about, and then they learn that I’m passionate about something and have been passionate about something for a long time, but I also would stifle it because I didn’t want to be judged in some way, shape or form. I didn’t want to be treated as different or, Oh, this is only cool, X, Y and Z amounts of times. So something that some people know about me is I really like following gymnastics and skating, and most people only care when the Olympics rolls around, but I know what goes on the other three year three, three and a half years of the Olympic quad cycle, basically because I like to know what’s going on. I like to be everybody’s most knowledgeable friend at the Olympics, and I just think it’s cool. And I was never an athlete, and I felt very kind of like shy about it for the longest time, because I didn’t want someone to think that was weird or strange, or, you know, because these sports also get a odd reputation at times for how they treat their athletes and how the athletes have to present themselves that I didn’t want it to be skewed when I just genuinely enjoyed the fact the human body is capable of twisting and jumping and doing things that should not be possible, and I felt this need to hide it for a long time too. Like I felt like that was something that I had to kind of keep to myself, even though it’s not hurting anybody, but if someone does their joy by themselves or engages with their interest by themselves, it might be a solo ish hobby. It might be something that isn’t very share, kind of conducive to sharing, I guess. So think about like fine art, that it might not be that the act of drawing or painting with another person, but they want to focus on their artwork. You can engage with them after you can try to see if they’re open to learning something new in the same realm, there’s so many ways you can get creative, but I do think a big part of it is just how we’re conditioned around certain things and what is and isn’t socially acceptable. Or maybe someone’s been bullied for the things that bring them joy before, and they’re scared that they’ll get that same reaction. You don’t know what past experiences or potential trauma somebody is carrying around. So that can be a huge part, part of why somebody is reluctant to share.
JT:
That’s such a good point. I love, I love the focus on you have to find out their why, right? Because it might not be universal, and it could be different, depending on what it is.
HM:
Exactly, and it’s very easy to say, Oh, they’re just not interested. When you know, maybe they’re interested but they’re afraid, or maybe it’s just something that’s not conducive to being a group activity, and when you have that approach like that makes a lot more sense. Like, okay, maybe it’s not necessarily what we think, because I think a lot of the times keeping to yourself or doing things individually is construed as a lack of interest in other people. And I think that’s where all. Autism kind of gets a bad rap is that it’s assumed you don’t want to be social, you don’t want to share, you don’t want to do any of these things. You’re hyper individualistic when really sometimes there’s deep fear around sharing. There’s also this kind of I need to rely on myself for this because, or now that I’m an adult, I can do this thing, and nobody can tell me that it’s wrong or bad when I know it’s not wrong or bad. So I think a lot of people have a very mixed bag of experiences here.
JT:
That’s totally fair. And I’m curious about the ice skating and gymnastics, because I’m with you. I think I love it, but I am one of those people who like focuses in on it, mainly at the Olympics, but totally see the benefit. Like, I would love to watch the next Olympics with you, because I feel like you bring all the all the knowledge. But I’m curious. You said you used to watch it alone. Does that like, have you like, have you allowed other people to watch it with you? Or how?
HM:
Or I will be like, I will educate you on the main cast of characters, because the characters are almost as interesting as the thing. Like, I might not be able to tell you the difference between the types of jumps, but I can tell you who can jump what I can tell you who is a major player for a medal, perhaps so. Like, usually, I stick to the big meets, generally. When it comes to the four year sports that everybody gets very excited about that I don’t have the time or energy to watch every major thing. I don’t watch every Challenger Series, every Grand Prix event. So if you are a skating fan, there’s usually several weeks of Grand Prix every year, and then the Grand Prix Final like that’s great grand preseason. There’s something almost every weekend, it feels like I don’t have that kind of time. I don’t have I will check in. I’ll see how everybody’s doing, and that will inform me. But usually I stay around for the big for the big competitions. That’s usually what I tell people. I stay where, like, I will watch US Nationals every year, because I like to know what we’re sending out there into the world. I watch European Championships, because I like to know four continents is the other big one in skating, and then, of course, there’s worlds in the Olympics. So those are the ones that I tell people. Like, if you don’t know what you’re doing, just follow the big meets.
JT:
That’s so cool. So even if maybe someone isn’t like, watching it with you, they can, like we can totally have conversations about it before and after. Yeah, that sort of brings the joy together for us. But it doesn’t mean I need to intrude on your space, if that’s not comfortable.
HM:
Exactly. And I have a friend who literally will just send me whatever some of the top skaters are up to, and that’s her way of engaging, even though she’s not a massive fan, but she’s like, I appreciate this as art, and that’s good enough that I could be like, Oh my God, you will, let me say, why you pick someone who’s awesome? Like, that’s really cool. I love that. There’s so many ways, and I think a lot of it, especially in sports. It’s a lot like celebrity gossip and pop culture. So when you know that there’s characters in drama. It’s a little bit more exciting.
JT:
Always, always
HM:
So much drama in all of these sports. That’s the thing that I think people don’t know. Sometimes you get sucked in because of the drama, or you stay because of the drama.
JT:
Exactly, exactly. Okay. So that brings me to the next question, which is sometimes I might notice that an autistic person might find deep joy in something for a long time, so much longer than the people around them expect, and often adults or peers want to move on, or even even when the person still engaged and happy with whatever it is. What’s your take on that? And how can we better honor the joy instead of just like rushing through it or redirecting it?
HM:
I think a lot of it is societal expectations and those limits that we were talking about earlier, about age appropriate stuff. But again, my big thing is, if it’s not hurting someone, I’m okay with it. I think that there’s a very real conversation to still be had about how other people might perceive that interest or joy, especially as children become teenagers and teenagers become adults, that there’s still the very real chance that people will not be as nice to you about said interest. I think that’s a very real conversation and knowing how to navigate that is very delicate, that you kind of assume the risk, you know. So I know, thankfully for me, when I talk about Pokemon, there’s a lot of 30 somethings and 20 somethings who are riding on nostalgia, so it’s not so bad. But I know that other stuff kind of gets that same kind of double take, and especially when I was a teenager, you’d get that double take, because, again, it was something that was traditionally thought of for younger boys, and that was something I thought about, and I wouldn’t share that this thing brought me joy, but I’d still have my joy. It’s not like we stopped buying the games or but I did stop collecting cards for a high. Minute in my life and got back into collecting cards as an adult, because another adult friend of mine got into it again, and I was like, Wait, how did I miss out on this for so many years? But we do have joy for things, I think, longer than others. Or if you have the combo pack of being autistic and ADHD, maybe you cycle through things faster, but you always end up coming back to your tried and true they’re not always one hit wonders, but I do feel like there are a lot of one hit wonders if you are someone who is ADHD, so that’s something to kind of have as an asterisk on your these things bring prolonged joy, because some people want to do all the things and engage with all the things, and then they forget about them. But I know when I get into something, I usually will stick around for a while, unless I have a reason not to, or it finds a way that it still brings me joy, but not the same level. And I think there’s so many things that can go into that, whether it’s the fact the the like, the popularity of the interest, other people’s interest in it with you, maybe it’s just nothing has evolved in it to keep you still following along. There’s always something, and I usually hope that something isn’t a result of people being mean.
JT:
Absolutely well. And it makes me think that, you know, sometimes, like, let’s say, an adult or a peer or someone tries to rush or redirect, and it’s like maybe in their mind, they’re thinking, well, we have to do X and Y and Z, but ultimately, it’s really sort of dismissing the person with the interest and they’re into it.
HM:
And I think that’s where that internalized shame comes from. On so many special interests that autistic people have, they are afraid that they might get rushed through. We’re told this is not cool. This is not appropriate. This is whatever it may be that when we talked about that solo shot type thing, that’s exactly what’s going on. Is look how it starts to form.
JT:
Exactly, exactly. So that’s huge. So if there’s joy going on, stay with it. Don’t rush it. Don’t try to make it. Move on, enjoy it in the moment.
HM:
And trying to understand the why that thing brings so much joy is also really powerful, and what that joy looks like for that person. Yes, yes, 100% and why some forms are more acceptable than others, I think we have to question deep within, and I think about this a lot when it comes to certain things. So I know we use the example of Disney earlier, and I know so many autistic people who get joy out of Disney at all ages and stages. But we have not exactly shamed publicly too much the Disney adult. The Disney adult is still very, very real in pop culture. It’s something that’s very much talked about. There’s lots of content geared towards them, and we are okay with that, but other things we’re not okay with. And I think that’s really something we have to look inward to address.
JT:
I totally agree. And it makes me think about, you know, feelings of safety and trust. And if you think about the Disney adult, you know, if you’re super into Disney as an adult, you can’t go dress as a character. You feel pretty safe in that environment, because everyone else around you is in the same mindset. But then if you don’t feel safe, you know, telling a peer about that, then, then you’re suppressing it, then you feel like you have to hide it, and then that’s all about changing stuff that we don’t like. But if you’re with others who make you feel comfortable and trust them, then that sort of opens the door to more joy and sticking with it the way you want to and the way it should be stuck to exactly.
HM:
And it keeps evolving as you grow and you discover more about yourself too. So even on the vein of Disney, I think of how many people go from Oh, I loved whatever movie or Mickey Mouse, and then they are excited to go to the Food and Wine Festival, for instance. That maybe you’re not excited about that when you’re five, but when you’re 25 or 35 you’re like, oh, wow, that’s something that’s in this vein, but it’s still exciting. Absolutely joy. So many evolutions of joy, even within the same interest or space,
JT:
Yes, yeah. So just because someone’s really joyful about one specific thing, that doesn’t mean it won’t evolve, but you sort of need the space and the freedom to allow it to evolve.
HM:
Exactly and you never know where it will take someone. That’s the one big piece of advice I usually give to families, is stick with it, because you don’t know that. If someone is an eight year old like me who was drawing video game characters, you never know where that’s going to take them. Like I love games. That’s also what got me into art. Even though I love to illustrate, and I’ve loved drawing since I was a little kid. I really cared that much more when I was able to draw my favorite characters. And that’s how I got into animation and anime and all that stuff, because there was kind of this evolution of joy. And I think that’s really powerful to think about, is maybe I am going to be a professional illustrator. Maybe. Maybe I’m not. I’m not. I think that’s pretty clear at this point in my career, but it’s something I very much enjoy. And I think that also comes with the caveat as well, because we say you never know where joy is going to lead you. It can lead you to a career. It might never lead you to a career. And not all joy has to be monetized, which is a whole other kind of can of worms that we can open it another time.
JT:
I totally agree. I totally but I will just say that you are an amazing artist, like fabulous artist.
HM:
Thank you, and I enjoy it that much more that it’s not my career.
JT:
It doesn’t have to be, and that’s all good.
HM:
I enjoy creating for the sake of creating. I enjoy creating when I want to, to regulate, to bring a smile into the world, not to feel this pressure to constantly do it.
JT:
Love that. I love that. Okay, so for someone who’s listening, who might be thinking, well, the autistic person I love doesn’t seem to have much joy right now, how can I help them find it? What would you say to them?
HM:
Oh my gosh, I want to hug you and the autistic people in your life, because so much has to happen to just completely lose it. Maybe their interest is waning. Maybe it’s mental health. Maybe it’s the amount of time burnout. And usually, I think for autistic people in burnout, we really lose it because you are too tired to think or too tired to really do much other than keep yourself alive. I think about this with adults in particular, because I feel like children always somehow find joy in something, and I think that’s magical. And one of the reasons that so many of us adults want to be children again is that even the simplest things in your life can just make you completely light up. But I think for adults, a lot of us are burned out retired. We have felt rejection in some way, shape or form, more than once in this life, and finding your joy again can just be picking up that thing you haven’t thought about since you were 12, but you know that it brought you a lot of excitement and something you were very passionate about, it could be trying something new. It can be just taking that risk sometimes, and also rest. Because I think so often we tell people, you know, just get back into it. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, and everything will just fall into place. But for so many autistic people, rest is so important, and actually taking care of yourself in the way that you deserve, and oftentimes just knowing the world being the way that it is, and people’s judgments and attitudes and so many other things that are difficult out there for us, because autism is not all sunshine and roses. No matter how many times we talk about joy is it’s not your fault that your brain is the way that it is. Your brain is beautiful, the way that it is, and you’re not broken, but other people in the world makes it harder, and it shouldn’t be, and you deserve better than that. And I hope that a lot of people on the spectrum know they deserve better, whatever that might mean for you, whether it’s the environment you grew up in the way your peers treated you, the way the workforce is treating you. You deserve better in some way, shape or form, and better can and should include your joy.
JT:
Oh, I love that. I love that so much. And Joy doesn’t always look the same for everyone, right? So do you think autistic joy might show up in different ways that people might overlook, maybe because of sensory differences or communication styles or developmental levels.
HM:
Absolutely, I think it shows up sometimes with extra stimming that somebody might think is concerning because I am a or I know, speaking from experience, I can be either an excited stimming person or a nervous stimming person. So you can get two different sides of the same coin, but you really have to look at the context. If I am nervously fidgeting, you will see on my face. You will see it in some other action in my body that will give that away. And you can easily distinguish that I am fidgeting because I’m excited and I got to keep my hands busy somehow, like that’s very different than I am anxious or dysregulated. I think you really have to pay attention to that person’s body language and know that our expressions of feelings, especially ones that aren’t super, super simple, can look different, and it doesn’t mean that that expression or performance of it is wrong. I think about this a lot with things like grief, where people are expected to cry a lot, and people are expected to be sad all the time, and then you might have somebody who is completely numb, or someone who just goes about their day and tries to laugh about it because they don’t know how to handle it. Like grief, I feel like, is the one universal human emotion that we don’t say people are doing it right or wrong, because everybody reacts differently, and comparing that to anything else, I think, is probably the fairest assessment. When it comes to autism, I hate comparing experiences too much, but I feel like that’s the safest one, because there’s no correct reaction right that every single person is going to experience that emotion so different. Lee, and we can’t fault them one way or another, and we can’t you’re not going to tell someone who had a major loss in their life that they’re not sad enough, absolutely. So however somebody is acting with their joy or their sadness or whatever, you have to understand that how that person experiences it is unique to them.
JT:
Absolutely so really understanding the other person and their individual profile and how they express things in general, like if someone’s non speaking, but to your point earlier, but let’s say they’re flapping. If someone doesn’t know that, that is how they’re expressing that they’re happy, like you have to look for those cues to say, okay, yes, I see hand flapping. I think that that’s true. And then you might like say something just to confirm, like mind the right boat here.
HM:
And also with little ones, you have to remember that their language to express their feelings is a lot more simple to what they’re feeling than what we expect out of grown ups. I say this as someone who is an anxious child, that I would just tell you, my tummy hurt. I didn’t have the words to say I’m anxious like an adult would but, but I also knew if I was anxious, my stomach hurt. My tummy hurt and I didn’t eat something funny. You probably knew I was trying to say I was nervous because I didn’t eat something funny, but my tummy still hurting. You know what I mean? Like, think that might have been the only way I was able to access language to even get to some form of nervousness or anxiety.
JT:
That’s so interesting. Then, if you say that in school, then usually you get to go to the office or the nurses, and then you quiet safe space…
HM:
Exactly. That’s what I learned as a kid, is I realized that was quiet space, and also the only way you’d get to go home. If things were not going your way.
JT:
So in a lot of ways, saying My tummy hurts is actually genius, because it’s a way of expressing some things up, and it helps you solve the problem of anxiety in this moment.
HM:
And the adults eventually figured out when you didn’t eat something weird, that that’s exactly what you’re doing and what you’re feeling, even though you didn’t have the language. And I think that’s really big, is that we expect people now to have a lot more language, and language is super powerful, but expecting teenagers and kids and toddlers to have adult language isn’t fair either. That’s so true. That’s so true. And I know social media makes it easier to have access to the language, but it doesn’t always help when you are young, or you do not have that level of language vocabulary, or your brain does not process language like a neurotypical person.
JT:
I mean, the word anxiety for kids, neurotypical for anyone is like, it’s such a big word and such a complex word, but, but you’re exactly right. We should be identify and frankly, well, I think, Oh, what’s that movie that came out with all the emotions inside out, inside out, yes, in season two, wasn’t there a character?
HM:
There was anxiety and jealous. I think it was jealousy or envy. Was new on that one. There was nostalgia. There was another. I think boredom was one of them. Yeah, boredom. Same was ennui we because, you know, trying to be sophisticated.
JT:
Yeah, it’s so I do think things like that help help everyone get on the same page about language. So I thought that was genius, because everyone should learn the word anxiety, but we can’t expect that kids know that word or know all of the things that come with it.
HM:
Exactly. And then there’s being nervous. Because when you’re a kid, people ask if you’re nervous, and that might be smaller than anxiety so you’re not there, you might say no, because you feel something that’s not the same as, Oh, I’m nervous to go on stage in the school play when you have that, like sinking feeling in your stomach for just existing in a group of kids.
JT:
Absolutely. Yeah, it really. I think everyone should be learning and talking about emotions and how they’re feeling and the differences between them often, because you’re right, if you learn nervous is what happens when I’m about to get on stage, then like, you don’t want it to be specific to a moment in time or an event, but making sure that it’s connected to all of all of the things that we all experience all the time.
HM:
And you have a lot of autistic people with alexithymia who can’t express their emotions or have words for their feelings. One of my absolute favorite teaching tools that I’ve ever seen was a wheel with emotions on it, and you get to kind of pick the general category you’re feeling. And then there were more descriptive words as you go down.
JT:
Ooh, I love this idea that
HM:
It’s a great visual. I will try to pull one up for you, because it’s such a good thing to have in your toolbox. I saw it once in a workbook geared towards teenagers that I was asked to review, and I thought it was so genius that it helped, and it also helped me use more descriptive language to better. Understand feelings. I thought it was very cool.
JT:
I feel like that would help every single human on the face of this planet. That would be amazing. And then maybe we can put it in the show notes so everyone can can check out exactly what you’re talking about. That’s awesome.
HM:
Yeah, it’s called the feelings wheel, or the emotional wheel. Ooh.
JT:
All right, make a note. I hope everyone else is too. Okay? And then so and I know that, and I’m so honored that you’ve been sharing so much about yourself through this chat, but I’d love to hear a little bit about your own experience and what brings you the most joy these days. Again, I know we sort of talked about a few different things. And I’m also curious have things, how have things changed or evolved from what brought you joy as a kid?
HM:
I think having more of an appreciation for that joy is what happens as you get older. I think you appreciate it more, and you you also have to be responsible, which is kind of funny, that you have to figure out, I can’t just sit here and play games all day. I have to still have responsibilities. I still can’t let this get in the way. And that’s so complicated, because you want to feel the good things all the time, that you still have to navigate existing and surviving and so much more. So that’s probably the biggest thing, I think, with adults and having to untangle some of the feelings as well. So feel because I think a lot of us have some kind of internalized shame or internalized ableism or some kind of secondhand embarrassment, there’s something there that stifles autistic joy the older you get, that you don’t have this sort or at least when you’re a young adult, because you don’t have that sort of just unfiltered experience of being on this planet like you do when you’re little. And so that, I think, has been the biggest change. A lot of the interest, generally, can still be traced to my childhood, which is super cool. Some things are new that I’ve picked up just from Hey, you might think this is really interesting, or there’s kind of like the Venn diagram of things, or I learn about it because of something that I already like. So one of my favorite news stories to tell from the past year and a half of my life is about baseball. As someone who never cared about baseball in my life and thought, oh, it’s boring. I everything I know about baseball came because I learned how to play baseball on the PlayStation. And I thought it was very fun. I love video games. I picked it up. I thought it would be cool. Might as well learn something new. Play something new. And then I was like, this is actually fun, and it’s tied to the real season and the real people and how they’re performing and what’s going on and whatnot. And I was like, Oh, this is actually kind of cool, that everything I thought I knew was wrong, and that’s my big joke, is, every time anything baseball comes up, I’ll be like, I know who that guy is from PlayStation, because most people learn this stuff because they just watch things on TV all day. And I’m like, I know about this because of the PlayStation so and it shows how joy can jump. It does because I’m like, I love getting to play things. I love games. I love playing but I’m not an athlete at all. But I’m like, okay, and I’m like, wow, I get to have my game joy. And there’s something here. There’s like, different stats, there’s different stuff, like, oh, there’s something that makes sense in my little brain. It just happens to be tied to something I didn’t think I would ever care about, which is pretty funny, I love that. Well, there’s kind of that ways that joy can be sequential, I guess that, oh, long standing interest. I have played video games as long as I have been able to see and had working hands. I grew up with a console in my house since I was maybe three or four years old. Like playing video games is no surprise, and it’s just that I’m willing to try different games now that I’m older and also have different consoles and have income that I can spend on games for the heck of it, type thing be like, Okay, if it works, it works. If I hate it, I’ll sell it back. Like, no big deal, low stakes, and I end up surprised on a regular basis. That’s something I didn’t know if I would like, turns out to be fun. And then everyone’s wondering, like, I want to know a little bit more about this. And I think that’s what happens for a lot of us. Think about the Olympics, like, I want to know more about this, or look at when something historic happens, then a billion people sign up for the thing at the like, after the Olympics. I think about that with the Summer Olympics that you saw a bunch of men signing up for and boys signing up for a gym because of the palm horse kid, like, like that. There’s so many ways that joy kind of spreads and snowballs for people just generally, based on a moment in time.
JT:
And let it go. Because, what’s the harm? Right? If ever, if all, all the little boys want to do gymnastics amazing. Like, isn’t that?
HM:
Like, what’s the worst thing that happens? They realize they are not athletic or would rather play another sport, then we can try to channel that energy somewhere.
JT:
Exactly, exactly.
HM:
And, of course, it’s good for the sport. If people are enrolling yada yada, like, that’s like everybody kind of wins on the joy thing. It was a big deal that we had, like a viral sensation who won the men a medal or two medals, actually. Won two battles, and then he was on Dancing with the Stars
JT:
I want a t shirt that says exactly what you just said. Like, everyone wins with the joy thing, right? It’s like, the more joy, like, it’s it’s contagious, and it really is. There’s no downside, except society will try to push it down, but we can just keep pushing it through.
HM:
Yeah, and I think not looking at it in a vacuum of just pure, unadulterated joy, 24/7 365, because that’s not realistic for anybody. Nope, nope. Just that. The way that autistic Joy happens is it’s that much more intense feeling that you can feel it radiate that much more.
JT:
I love that. Okay, so on the flip side, what do you think might get in the get in the way of joy for autistic people, especially in school work or community settings, and how can we start to shift those environments to be a little more joy friendly?
HM:
I think actual obligations is kind of a big thing, but also something I really feel weary about is when joy is used as a reward. I think that also happens, and then it gets sucked out of things that we really care about. But it’s like, Oh, if you do your homework, you can go play the game. You can go do this. You say five words, you get whatever. You get more TV time or whatever. Like, I understand where you’re coming from, but I’m afraid that when Joy gets associated as reward, instead of incorporating that joy throughout things, which is what we are talking about with, like neurodiversity, affirming and dir approaches of really meeting somewhere where they are joy as a reward feels weird, because emotions and passion shouldn’t be rewards. They should be rewarded.
JT:
Yes, I totally agree.
HM:
That’s a really big thing in community and just existing and throughout the lifespan,
JT:
Absolutely we have to join in it. I remember once talking to a therapist who was saying, Oh, I have I’m working with a client who loves Aladdin. And so what we do is, after we do 10 of these amazingly boring drills, by what it sounds like, then we get to watch five minutes of Aladdin house. Like, that sounds terrible. Like, why aren’t you acting out Aladdin, or writing out the script of a lot? Like, there’s so many different…
HM:
Exactly or incorporating Aladdin into the drills that it would make sense. Like, Aladdin wouldn’t do this, would he? No, oh gosh, we learned something. Or what would Aladdin do here? Yeah, he wouldn’t so many ways to get him to bring these, bring these things in and not just ruin it.
JT:
100% I so agree with that. All right. Haley, if listeners take away one message from our conversation, what do you most want them to remember about autistic joy?
HM:
I want them to know that autistic joy is special, that it is something to join in, to celebrate, to really feel and not to break that and to really cherish it when you get to experience it, because it takes vulnerability and trust To get to see it. So I hope that you take it for what it is and get to join in whenever you can.
JT:
That’s so beautiful. And finally, Haley, where can people learn more about you and your work? Are there any upcoming projects or things you’d love listeners to check out or support?
HM:
I am always happy when folks want to keep learning and keep connecting and see what I’m up to, too. So you can say hi to me in the way that feels most accessible to you, whether that is on my website, haleymoss.com or on any major form of social media. I am on Facebook X Instagram and Tiktok, which makes me feel kind of old, even though I am learning how to do the thing, so I am always happy just to have a good conversation, to keep learning, to keep growing, and to keep kind of changing some misconception, misconceptions, wow, I can’t talk right now, and perceptions of neurodiversity.
JT:
I love that. Haley, thank you so much for this beautiful conversation, and for sharing your perspective, your experiences and your joy with all of us today and everyone listening. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Different Brains, which is so exciting, and I hope today’s conversation inspires you to look for moments of joy in yourself and the people you love, and especially in the everyday moments that make life a little brighter. So until next time, keep celebrating what makes us all different and what brings us all joy.
