ICF certified coach Gillian Forth discusses how to make a workplace neuroinclusive.
Gill is a 35 year old white settler, cisgender, neuro queer woman who is married, childfree, and living in the suburbs of Ontario, Canada. Their coaching practice is neuro affirming and inclusive of LGBTQQIP2SA plus communities and people of all gender identities. Gill has spent a decade in the nonprofit sector with a focus on client experience and engagement, group facilitation, DEI, and operations. They hold a certificate in Adult Education and are an ICF Associate Certified Coach (ACC) and have coached hundreds of neurodivergent people as they move into new roles and workplaces, and supported both employees and managers through a wide range of workplace challenges. Gill also has extensive experience advising teams and organizations on creating more inclusive and accessible environments, particularly for neurodivergent and disabled professionals.
For more about Gill’s’ work: https://www.thelowachiever.com/
For more about host Bea Moise: https://beatricemoise.com/
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FULL TRANSCRIPTION
Note: the following transcription was automatically generated. Some imperfections may exist.
BEA MOISE (BM):
Hello, and welcome to Exploring Different Brains. I am Bea Moise, and I’ll be your host today. I’m excited to welcome my guest, Gillian Forth, who is doing so much excellent work and coaching and making workplaces neuroinclusive. Gill, welcome. How are you today?
GILLIAN FORTH (GF):
Hi Bea. Thank you so much for having me. I’m also very excited to be here and yeah, looking forward to this conversation.
BM:
Good, good. So first, we want this light, we want this happy, but we also want this to be informative and educational, because we definitely are trying to reach our people, as many of them as possible. So why don’t you introduce yourself to our audience?
GF
Yeah, absolutely. So I’m Gill. I use she, they pronouns. I’m up in Canada, outside of Toronto, and I’ve been coaching for over four years now, primarily neurodivergent folks, so autistic people, ADHDers and other different neurodivergences in there, and I have been especially and particularly working in The workplace context, so supporting individuals with transitioning into work, navigating workplace challenges and and really supporting them and becoming the people that they want to be at work and showing up in the way that they want to at work. And and I also do neurodivergent life coaching as well, so it doesn’t necessarily have to be within the workplace. And I love to read. I’m perfect. I’m currently really into Stephen King and so working through through his huge assortment of books, yes. And I also love movies and TV and just being lazy with my golden retriever, Joey. So that’s a little bit about me.
BM:
I love that. So a couple of things you said that I’m absolutely in love with one Stephen King. I love you already, one of my favorite authors. I don’t know if you’ve gotten through I don’t know where you are at with your Stephen King journey, but the Langoliers is probably one of my favorite things that this individual have written. So if you haven’t reached that one yet, oh, I highly suggest you get there quickly.
GF
No, okay, noted for sure.
BM:
So that’s one. Secondly, you’re in Canada. I have not been to Ontario — Toronto?
GF
Yep, Toronto is in Ontario.
BM:
Yeah, I have not been there. I’ve been to Vancouver, I’ve been to Quebec, and I’ve been to Montreal, Montreal, but I have not been to Toronto. So now that I have a friend…
GF
Yeah, exactly, exactly have to come up. It’s, I mean, Vancouver and Montreal are also beautiful in Quebec City, I, you know, in the East Coast. I mean, I love Canada. I love traveling across Canada, but, yeah, you definitely have to, have to hit up Toronto.
BM:
Yeah, that’s now, that’s on my list. So, but tell us, how did you came to doing this work, like, how did you get here?
GF
Yeah, that’s a really good question. So, you know, kind of taking it all the way back, I was diagnosed with a non specified, non verbal learning disability as a teenager, and that didn’t actually really have significant implications for me at the time. It didn’t really give me much information, and many people I’m sure can relate to that, that a diagnosis is just kind of, it’s just that, it’s just like, Okay, so there’s that. But what does that mean? How do I use that? What, you know, what do I actually need in order to, you know, operate the way I want to with this, with this information and and and, and so it really wasn’t internalized and didn’t really become a big part of my my identity or how I saw myself, because it just simply didn’t really resonate with me. I I’ve always been a great reader, a great writer, and, you know, not great at math, but didn’t want to go into anything with math. So. I didn’t really bother me that much, and, and I was told I would probably struggle in university and, and that it might not even be like possible for me to really be successful there, and, and that especially stood out as something that did not resonate with me. My sister was a university. My parents went to university, and I was like, Okay, and so I really just kind of ignored a lot of what was said in that, in that, like, diagnosed, diagnostic, kind of conversation. And, and then, you know, went through university, loved it, very successful, did a graduate degree, and, and then it, you know, it kind of fast forward to, you know, the 2021 when I got a job with a nonprofit. It’s a global nonprofit that works with neurodivergent folks, specifically partnering with businesses to to recruit, hire and support neurodivergent folks, especially because, because of the employment gap and the unemployment rate amongst especially autistic individuals and and I entered that role because I had spent my career in the nonprofit space as a facilitator, as someone who worked kind of on the front lines, delivering presentations, working with people. And I really, really enjoyed that part of the work, but the neurodiversity aspect of the job was a little bit new for me at the time, and and so as I started to dive into it, and was working with more and more people coaching, which I didn’t have a lot of experience with at all. I really just was like, wow, these are my people. This all makes so much more sense. And that’s when I I really began to understand myself as a late, realized autistic person and and really started to actually understand my neurodivergence, and I can only assume that it was a misdiagnosis as a teenager, and that it really is, you know, all to do with masking and all of the different issues with getting an accurate diagnosis as a woman and and so when I was in this role, I follow up with coaching, which led me to pursue coaching training and coaching certification and and working with autistic individuals and ADHDers is just like my my passion, my people. It’s what I love. It’s, you know, just an incredible community, and I’m learning so much every day from people within the space and, yeah, it’s, it’s kind of a funny, winding journey, but, but that’s how I got here.
BM:
Well, it makes sense. It definitely makes sense, where you receive this diagnosis, but you didn’t get information, right? So, like, as soon as you get something in true, neurodivergent form, you went into, well, I have to research this, right? I have to get all the information that I can. Because now that I’m kind of in the known, I want others to also be in the known. And in the process of gaining more information, learning more about it, you not only learn more about yourself, but also the ability to help others who are not in the known. So I think it’s just, it’s a perfect marriage of basically how most of us show up in this space, especially, you know, I’m an ADHD or myself, and I know for me, my goal was, I don’t want another person going through life without this knowledge. Yes, you know, like that. It was literally that simple. It was like, I don’t want another individual to be 25 years old, 27 years old, 35 years old, 50 and just have not known what their brain is doing and why it’s doing what it’s doing. So I think it makes perfect sense that your journey look like this, where, you know, you were told that, then you’re like, Uh huh. Yeah, exactly, good. Now what, right? And I think in true, you know, hyper focus, you know, autistic fashion, of like, I gotta, I gotta learn all about it, right? I need all the things, all the information. So I love, I love how you described. Basically, you learn, but then you needed more, and by educating others, you’ve gained more insight. So how does like? How would you describe what a neuro inclusive workplace look like? What’s your description of that?
GF
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It’s a great question. It’s, you know what always comes to mind first when I think about a neuro inclusive workplace is psychological safety. I believe that when a workplace is psychologically safe, it is neuro. Inclusive.
BM:
So when we pause on that for a minute, I really love that. I love I love that to my core, because I think that is something we often think of. And, you know, obviously during this podcast, I speak to a lot of different people, and you know, there’s different things that we cover. We’ve covered the environment, which is a big love language of mine, because if it’s too bright, I’m not happy, you know, but I love this, the fact that your first take is psychological safety. I really love that. So I have ADHD, I interrupted, but I just really wanted to highlight that.
GF
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s such an important thing to highlight, because psychological safety is a big part of the conversation. So you know, LinkedIn, it’s all you know, we’re talking HR space, talking about psychological safety and how to create it. And as I started to learn more about that term and research it and understand it more, I was like, this is neuro inclusion. And so I was like, Why? Because I’m always consistently bothered by, you know, multiple different terms for the same thing. It gets confusing, right? And so that’s, that’s, you know, I bring those together, you know, for myself, and kind of how I explain things, because I like, you know, it’s like, if something, if someone, knows all about psychological safety, I’m like, great. I don’t really have very much more to explain to you when it comes to neuro inclusion, right? So psychological safety, of course, is, is defined as, you know, being able to being feeling safe and feeling comfortable and even feeling encouraged to take risks, I saw a great definition this week as well, that you know, the person with the least seniority in an organization should feel comfortable criticizing the person with the most seniority right, and that, to me, Is or like making a suggestion, not even right, but feeling like they can share their ideas right comment on something that this person has shared. That there’s that that comfort there, and to me that’s neuro inclusive, because what I often see as an inaccessible or non inclusive workplace is one where you know someone who’s neurodivergent is discouraged or even reprimanded, or there’s they experience retaliation for the thinking differently, for sharing different ideas, for behaving in different ways that may not be considered quote, unquote, Professional, or may not be reading those kind of implicit norms, and that, to me, is the opposite of psychological safety, where there’s a lack of curiosity and creativity in how we work with other people. And so that’s where I think that’s what neuro inclusion, how it’s really best described, especially in the context and using the term psychological safety.
BM:
I love that. So doing this work, being in that space you know, being in it like you are, what do you see are challenges that you’ve seen from neurodivergent employees in terms of receiving accommodations to feel safe, or just accommodations in general, like what have been, what are some challenges that you’ve noticed?
GF
Oh, gosh, too many. But you know, what really stands out to me is the role of the direct manager. The manager, I think, is, is one of the most they play one of the most significant roles, I think, in accessibility and inclusion and in particular accommodations, because they depending on the workplace. So the more accessible and the more inclusive a workplace is, the more empowered performance managers are to adapt and make changes that can benefit their team members. Whereas, you know, I work with lots of different kinds of organizations, maybe consulting firms, larger types of companies where performance managers are not empowered in that way, they the rules, the norms, the structure is far more rigid. It makes it very difficult, because everything has to constantly go up a chain of command. Things have to go directly to HR. Things become medicalized. So it’s like, prove your your diagnosis, your need. Let us even be so invasive as to talk to your as to talk to your doctor. And it’s like, that’s that’s really not what you know, good accessibility, good inclusion, good accommodating looks like. And so when the problems that I you know, I see all the time, our managers believing that accommodations are a lower. Of the bar, a lowering of standards. And so like, oh, well, if I give you more time, that means that you’re not meeting performance expectations. And the thing is that those expectations are already arbitrary or ambiguous to begin with, and so it’s unclear, like, Okay, what does it mean to be able to perform in a fast paced environment? What do those things actually mean? So clarity, and, you know, real understanding about those types of expectations, I think, creates even further opportunity for misunderstanding, miscommunication, and ultimately discrimination against people like neurodivergent individuals who think differently and require types of support, like written communication or more time or the ability to talk through something with their manager right automatically see that as like you’re you’re needy, you’re cheap, you’re too much to manage. You need to be more independent. And the and the thing is that that is still they think often, that that’s clear, and that that makes sense, but it’s still pretty big. What does it mean to be independent? What is independent enough? And so those are some of the things that I that I see as being challenges for sure.
BM:
Yeah, I think that also goes into not understanding everyone process information differently. And because we process information differently, some people literally process out loud, right? So basically, the thinking happens as they’re saying it right? Some people process internally. So the thinking happens late at night, 2am thinking about certain things and kind of dissecting it and taking it apart. But there’s no right or wrong way. It’s just, this is how it’s happening. This is just what it is now. This would lead to, how would somebody have a level of self advocacy in that space, right? Like, how can you genuinely advocate? So, can you tell us a bit more about how someone can advocate for themselves, and what does that look like, especially if you know, if I tell you I need to process out loud, and you’re saying I need too much hand holding, like, what am I supposed to do? So can you give a little bit about self advocacy and what that can look like?
GF
Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s, it’s not easy, and there’s no clear answer, because it really, it really can be that really, what’s the word just, it can be a back and forth with your manager that just, you know, takes the wind out of your sails. It’s very like you’re going to have this back and forth. They may be defensive about it, or, you know, really steadfast in that belief that this is what good work in this role looks like, instead of being open and curious and creative about, okay, well, that’s interesting. I want to support you in doing your best work, because ultimately, that’s the role of a performance manager. Move barriers to doing your work and able to support you in being able to execute your work and and I think that this, this actual kind of shift in our workplace toward, you know, hyper independence, you know, being a self starter, being being able to work, you know, without a higher level of support, is affecting neurotypical people too. I think everybody is, really, is going to be feeling the strain of that, that because, like you said, the ability to just work something out and process it out loud, you know, as as a coach, you know, I have supervision, and I have mentors, and it’s really funny how sometimes you can just be, like, talking through something with someone, and they don’t have to say anything, but they’re listening to you intently, and you’re like, okay, Yeah, okay, now I got it. I’ve got it. Yeah, exactly, exactly, and, and so, and there’s, you know, there is research that shows that that is a very real processing and strategy, especially when we’re thinking of some of the the challenges or impairments associated with autism and an ADHD and other neurodivergences With with working memory and being things in mind and play around with them. Being able to verbalize that and vocalize that aloud is is huge. And so you know how to be a good self advocate, understanding those things yourself. Of being able to explain them clearly, even if it is in writing or preparing for that conversation, I’ve I’ve definitely written down things that I wanted to say to a manager when I wasn’t confident I’d be able to, you know, do it, live right, right? So, you know, doing the research, feeling like you really understand your own needs. Because that is, I think, one of the things that I often work with individuals on. They they know that they have under a divergence, or they have a disability, but it’s like, I actually don’t really know, like, what kind of accommodations I can ask for, what’s you know, what is reasonable, what, what would actually help me? And so we often work on that together, trying to figure out, like, Okay, what, what are the barriers that you’re saying? And that can also be a good way to articulate it to, you know, to colleagues, to a manager, it’s like, these are the barriers, because we don’t have to be saying what our disability is. We can just say, I have a disability, and that means that i i cannot work as effectively with bright lights, or I cannot work as effectively with without a thought partner, right, talk through and prioritize my work with those types of things. I think that’s the type of language that I often will work with folks on, but it’s, it is not to say that you won’t have a manager that just says no, and then next steps are really as you feel like, as you wish and what you really want to happen next.
BM:
Yeah. See that, to me, goes into, you’ve advocated, but in the same tone you’ve also disclose, right? Because self advocacy comes with disclosure, right? If you, if I’m saying, Hey, I require this, and I require that you’re, you’re now telling them, like some something is different about me in comparison to others, and something I will need, and others I may not, or whatever that may be. So what are some issues have you seen when an employee self disclose that’s negatively or positively impacted them? Like, what have you seen happen in that space?
GF
Well, unfortunately, you know, neurodivergent individuals, ADHDers, definitely stand out as being more likely to be let go, more likely to be fired and and so that can be, that can be a big challenge. I was recently at the ADHD conference in in Kansas City, and we were in a peer support group of entrepreneurs and self employed individuals. And I think there was probably like 60 of us in the room, maybe 50 of us, and well over half had been fired shortly after disclosing their their neurodivergence, their disability. And you know, then you may also experience getting on a performance improvement plan. You know, the writings on the wall. You often when I’m working with individuals, they can feel it. They know, I also work with lots of folks who have felt very blindsided by by being by being fired and let go. And so that can be a, I mean, a pretty major, pretty traumatic, negative side effect, because although there’s legal protection, right, it’s now like, they you can still be fired, and then you have to make a case, right? It’s not like, you know, someone swoops in like Superman being like, discrimination took place here, right? And so that, that can be very difficult, that was also a very dominant part of the conversation, in that, in that peer support group, because individuals were like, well, what now? What do I it’s right, right? It’s, it’s just too, much and so so that can be incredibly stressful and traumatic, but in terms of, you know, good things that can happen, I’ve worked with so many incredible managers who really find that information helps them as a manager And they want they are curious. They’re invested, they’re empowered. They really I’ve worked with lots of managers who want to work with me, just as much as the employee that right? You know, that’s been brought to coaching the managers like, hey, I want to know how I can be a more neuro inclusive manager. What? You know, what kinds of things can I do differently, because a manager plays such a significant role right in someone’s success, or not, and and so I think you know people generally know, you know, and have a good understanding of their relationship with their manager, what that looks like. And even just starting. There can be incredibly positive, especially when you have really specific like, this is the barrier I’m experiencing. Can we explore, you know, different ways of doing things for me to to be more successful, and you know, a good manager can and often will respond really, really, really, positively and really in an empowering way, because they, they want their people to say and so I’ve seen lots and lots of that as well. So lots of different possibilities for sure.
BM:
So if you’re a your job, you’re on your job hunting now, right? And you, you know you want to self disclose. You want the ability to advocate. You know who you are. You’ve been getting great coaching from Gillian. Like, if you are fully aware in the known of this, what are some things you should be looking for in the prospect environment, like, what should, what are the like, this is a good one. Like, this place is definitely neuro inclusive, or, I don’t know, like, I don’t know about this one. Are there things that we can, you know, you can look at, or people can look for, absolutely.
GF
Oh, yeah, that’s such a good question. You know? I think to start, of course, we all know about the various different kind of websites that tell us about different companies, like Glassdoor. Those can be really worthwhile. That being said, Of course, it’s important to understand those are skewed, usually toward disgruntled folks, right? So they can be very helpful, but they do highlight, you know, kind of one side of things, right, and and so they have their own issues. But I think when you go to in to research and learn about a company, see what’s prioritized on their website in how they portray themselves, whether it’s performative or there’s real, tangible effort, and, you know, projects that are being undertaken. And so I think, like, that’s kind of the first like, Okay, do I want to work here? What am I seeing here? What kind of language are they using? And, you know, because having basic accessibility statements or equity statements, out of, you know, out of, you know, out of 2020, a lot of companies adopted those things. So it’s not all necessarily indicative of a company that’s really on board with, with with equity and inclusion and neuro inclusion, and so looking for those real, tangible efforts and and steps that an organization has taken, and then when you’re applying, I wish I saw more of this, because, like the the accessibility statement or the equity statement is often at the bottom of job applications, at least in Canada, like, if you have a disability plan, no, And I would love to, and I would see it as a really great indicator, if that were to be at the top, that were to have even more kind of customized language, you can tell that.
BM:
It’s not an afterthought. It is an intentional thing place, like your name, right? Like it’s intentionally put there,
GF
Yes, exactly, exactly. And it’s not copy and pasted from Google, like Google equity statement. It’s something that you can tell the company actually tries to align with. It’s like, oh, this actually looks unique. I’ve never read one that, you know, said it like that before. That would stand out to me. And, you know, proactive types of questions from different like hiring managers or HR interacting with like, what you know, what could help you be more successful in this interview process? Because even outside of neuro inclusion, there’s been an inclusion in general, I would say there’s been a big movement, perhaps precipitated by like the tech sector to create more useful, more practical interviews. So we’re, we want to see what you can do. We want to, actually, you know, understand whether you can do this job, rather than perform for us for an interview, right, right? Seeing more of that just because companies want, do want to hire better and more effectively. And so it would really stand out to me interviewing with an organization if they were like, how, you know, how could we make this better for you? How can we make sure that you’re able to highlight your skills and strengths and really recognizing the importance of that in an interview to really be able to empower people to showcase their best selves, because so often it’s just, you know, okay, you’re going to get a phone screening, and then you’ll have this panel interview, right? You’re never really engaged with or interacted with. And so I think if there’s a personalized element to it. Would be quite positive. And any of that kind of proactive, engaging, you know, really genuine action and valuing, I think, would be a really positive sign. But anytime you can actually talk to any current employees, if you’re, you know, in the interview, and you’re able to ask questions and get good, genuine, authentic responses from like, what have you done to make your organization more neuro inclusive, or whatever you’re interested in? And it doesn’t feel like just a, oh, yeah, we’re really passionate about that. And, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and it’s just all kind of boilerplate that I think those are types of indications that that a workplace is probably at least doing the work and trying.
BM:
So I’m hearing any genuine effort, really, I hear, like, basically, if it’s a genuine effort, it will be felt, it will be seen, it will be experienced, as opposed to a copy and paste, you know, like, so that’s really what I’m hearing when, when we think about, you know, the work environment, and we’re trying to say, Okay, we belong here. We want to be here. Make it inclusive for all of us. Again, if it’s during close inclusive, it doesn’t exclude neurotypicals, right? Like, they’re not taken off the conversation. We’re just added to the conversation, but it doesn’t remove them. So I think, in that light, in that tone, what do you wish every manager knew about our people, about neurodiversity, about neuro divergent individuals. Like, what do you wish managers knew about neurodiversity?
GF
Yeah, you know, to what you were saying, that like this doesn’t exclude neurotypicals. It’s that, you know, anyone can face different kinds of challenges with the way that we think. Or, you know, people can think differently for a variety of reasons. We all experience stress or fatigue or illness, you know, different kinds of caregiving responsibilities at home, all of these different parts of our lives, of being human, enters into how we show up at work. And that is still true for neurotypical people. You know, you’ll you’ll have weeks where you’re not getting enough sleep, you’re you’re particularly stressed. That affects your performance. Yeah, affects your performance. It affects the way you show up. There was actually a really interesting article that I read the other day by culture amp. They found that around 2% of people can consistently high be high performers across across review cycles. So for more than two review cycles, can be high performer exceeding expectations. And in token, we started on exceeding expectations as some sort of legitimate workplace. You know, standard. But you know what I wish people knew about neurodiversity is that, is that we all benefit. Of course, it’s important even if everyone didn’t benefit. It’s important because it’s important for its own Yeah, and, and I think it does help people and managers understand that it does benefit everybody when we create psychologically safe workplaces, when we create accessible workplaces and embrace universal design that’s going to improve everybody’s ability to show up at their Best. And of course, recognizing that at your best is going to fluctuate. We’re going to have different natural human rhythms. But what your whatever your best is for that day, the the workplace, when it has that kind of universal design approach, takes a proactive approach and is constantly iterating on it. It’s not like, Oh, we’re a neuro inclusive workplace, right? What’s the next thing? Right? When? And that’s the thing, when it comes to accommodations, that I think I find interesting is even just the concept of an accommodation assumes that there’s some sort of default, right? That, okay, here’s the workplace that suits most people, and then we can accommodate others, yeah, and that is so not the case, right? Like there is no default right place that serves most people. We might have a default workplace that serves maybe like 20% of and even those 20% will benefit from the proactive, universal design approach of, how can we keep making this workplace more and more accessible to the greatest number of people and and that is, you know, I think what I wish people understood about neuro. Diversity is that it’s it’s going to support all people to show up at their best, and it’s also a really kind of fun and exciting area to embrace and to be curious about, to think about. I think it’s just so cool to think about all the different ways that people can can do things, think about things and understand and problem solve and strategize, and I think we’re missing out on a lot of really incredible ideas and ways of doing things when we limit ourselves to the typical workplace, right?
BM:
I think the way people should look at neurodiversity in general is, you know, can you imagine going through life with just one flavor of ice cream, right? Like, can you imagine, and I’m not even talking about people who are lactose intolerant, we’ve excluded them automatically, right? Right? Like, if we didn’t have, you know, the ability to do that as well. So to me, it’s, why would we be so content with one way of thinking and behaving, or two or three or four, you know, like, why not understand that there’s so many different flavors and variations, and you know, of the way we process information. What I will say is something about the neurodivergent community. You know, I am in America. I’m in Charlotte, North Carolina, and I have friends all over the world, all over the world, anytime I meet another person that is similar to my brain type. It’s like we’re in the same space in the same time, with the same mind, with the same interest. So there is definitely something that binds us together and but there are also things that keeps us apart. So there is like, you know, I’m sure you and I have tons of similarities as well as differences. So it’s why not put more energy into those similarities? And why not put energy and effort into those differences, to understanding, not to fix, not to change, but to understand. And I think that would just make we would all just get along better, you know?
GF
Absolutely, do what you’re saying. Like to understand, also to trust. I think that, like, sometimes, yes, understanding and you know, really accepting and having that that context and that curiosity about other people is so, so important, incredibly important and foundational, and we can also trust people’s experiences without understanding, yeah, as truth, right? It’s just like, okay, that’s your experience, right? And that I see in the workplace is there’s just so much doubt and skepticism and, you know, just misbelief that it’s like, no, I don’t think you do need that. Like, I don’t know where that came from, why people feel so empowered to just be like, No, I don’t believe you, but it’s like, if we like, if we just start with that baseline of, okay, thank you for telling me that this is what you need. I believe you like that would just like change so many things.
BM:
I agree. I agree. I think just believing when someone say something and not believing that they’re trying to innately take advantage of something, you know, because I’m like, why would I present a problem if I don’t have it?
GF
Oh my gosh. Like, why would I ask for an accommodation that I don’t need?
BM:
Like, why would I do that? Like, that looks negatively on me, right? Like, why would I require this change? And I tell, you know, I I tell people all the time, I’m like, listen, there’s a big difference between if I go into the grocery store and I have on sunglasses and, you know, noise canceling headset, versus if I do not. There’s at least a two, $300 difference when I go in there without these accommodations. I spend more I’m more dysregulated. I get things I don’t need, because my brain is doing a couple of things. It’s trying to regulate itself. It’s trying to calm itself. It’s trying to remember what it needs. It’s trying to filter out light and noise and different things. And it’s trying to buy it’s doing all of that. But then when I go in there with the needs of with what I need, which typically is sunglasses in the grocery store or wherever, and noise canceling headsets, I buy what I need, and I get out like I am clear, I’m concise, I am which is why certain people. Prefer online shopping because I can eliminate the noise that my brain naturally can’t do. So I think having more understanding of that perspective, not just limitations, but again, we’re here. We exist, and we’ve always been here. We’re just learning more about it, but we’re not making excuses. I think that’s basically your overall theme for making the work environment more neuro inclusive, is we’re not making excuses. They’re not making excuses. They just want to be accommodated to human needs. Yes, anything
Exactly, exactly, and the grocery store. I I hate the grocery store. Thank God. My partner, like, loves the grocery store. We’ll just meander around. And I’m like…
BM:
There’s a good idea I should have thought of that.
GF
I also embrace, like, grocery pickup and delivery.
BM:
Oh, yes, that I do love,
GF:
And, you know, I’ve had my own experience, like panic at the Costco, is what I say. Like, it’s overwhelming. It’s overwhelming.
BM:
I’m so with you. Yeah, so Gillian, you’re doing fantastic work. You’re doing things that I believe is making the world better for human not you know, for humankind in general. How do we find you? Like, where are you? How do we get a hold of you and your information?
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for asking. So I have a website, thelowachiever.com. And my social media handles @thelowachiever, and I’m on LinkedIn as well. I post, post articles on there, either under my business, The Low Achiever, or my own name, Jill Jillian fourth. And I Yeah, yeah. I post on Instagram and in LinkedIn, primarily. And I do have a blog on my website, and you can find lots of information there. You can book a call with me. I do one on one coaching, and I also do facilitation and workshops and education. And you know, I just love it when people drop a line and they’re like, Hey, I saw something here, or I heard something here, and I just wanted to talk to you about it. I just love, like you said, the community, the connection. I’m always on board for that.
BM:
I love that, I love the work that you’re doing. I think anytime we get someone with your light, with your energy, with your passion, but also with your experience, right? That is in this space of giving information back. You’re basically what was poured into. You want to pour it back in twice folds, because again, you want to reach more. I think that it’s such a beautiful gift. I thank you for your work. I’m so so glad we connected again. I have ADHD. I don’t know if you’ve heard but ADHDers were like Labrador Retrievers. We love everybody. We love everyone. I love now you’re like my best friend, like we literally love everybody I love that. I’m working on it. We’re working on it. So I’m glad we connected today. I’m glad you’ve given us such informative, positive information and how to just be a better human. I love that.
GF
Yeah, absolutely no. Thank you. Thank you future conversations.
BM:
Me too. Thank you and thank you. Thank you for being our speaker for today.
GF
Great to be here.