Matthew “Dr. Matt” Zakreski, PsyD shares his experience and advice for helping twice-exceptional children excel.
About our guest: Matthew “Dr. Matt” Zakreski, PsyD is a high energy, creative clinical psychologist and professional speaker who utilizes an eclectic approach to meet the specific needs of his neurodivergent clients. He is proud to serve the Gifted community as a consultant, a professor, an author, and a researcher. He has spoken nearly a thousand times all over the world about supporting neurodivergent clients, organizational wellness, and mental health. Dr. Zakreski graduated from Widener University’s Institute for Graduate Clinical Psychology (IGCP) in 2016. He is the co-founder of The Neurodiversity Collective, LLC, co-host of the podcast “Nerding out on Neurodiversity,” and the author of the Neurodiversity Playbook: How Neurodivergent People Can Crack the Code of Living in a Neurotypical World.
For more about Dr. Matt’s work:
https://linktr.ee/drmattzakreski
https://www.drmattzakreski.com/
https://www.theneurodiversitycollective.com/
For more about host Dr. Jennie Trocchio: https://www.drjennie.co/
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Note: the following transcription was automatically generated. Some imperfections may exist.
DR JENNIE TROCCHIO (JT):
Hello, friends. Welcome to another episode of Exploring Different Brains, the podcast where we slow down, get curious, and explore how different brains experience the world. I’m Dr. Jennie, an autism educator and developmental specialist, and I am really glad that you’re here today. We’re talking about a group of kids and adults who are often deeply misunderstood, the twice exceptional population, also known as 2e, and I am very excited to be joined by Dr. Matthew Zareski, a clinical psychologist, speaker, and advocate who has spent years helping families, educators, and clinicians better understand and support twice exceptional kids. So whether you’re a parent, an educator, a clinician, or maybe someone who’s just starting to recognize pieces of yourself in the idea of being twice exceptional, you are in for a treat. All right, so let’s get started, Dr. Matt. For our listeners who don’t yet know you, how do you usually introduce yourself without using your job title?
DR MATT ZAKRESKI (MZ):
Well, the best way to introduce myself as without my job title is I am a professional nerd.
JT:
I love that.
MZ:
Yes, if I thought that loving comic books and getting really passionate about things and being a theater kid would somehow algemize into me being a sought after international speaker and published author and podcast host as well. I would have laughed at you, and yet somehow that happened. So, like, let’s enjoy it. Let’s you know, because it is you know might as well lead with my nerdness, I guess.
JT:
Yes, absolutely. I love that. There are so many nerds out there who are underappreciated, and I think they deserve a little extra attention. So thank you. So we’re here today to talk about the twice exceptional or 2e population. So can you break down what that actually means for our listeners?
MZ:
Yeah, and so I mean, like a lot of psychologists, right? The research I do is ultimately me search. You know, I like a lot of kids. I was identified gifted in second grade. That’s when most universal testing takes place in the U.S. And and then you know I sort of sailed through middle school you know wasn’t that hard got to high school and the wheels fell off and there’s actually a term for this it’s called the performance cliff
JT:
oh the
MZ:
idea is that like how smart you are and how hard school is should like you know basically move a pace but when you’re really really smart things come really easy to you, so you don’t build the same skills as your peers. You don’t build asking for help and learning how to study. Like when I took AP Chem sophomore year of high school, I failed a test, and I was like, “Oh, I have to study for this. And I took the next test, and I failed the next one. I’m like, this might be a different thing than just I need to do something that is because I literally didn’t know how to study, and then I got to, and then all of the things that were sort of like the fun quirks of my brain, like like oh wait no that’s actually ADHD, ah right because you know we know one neurodivergence predicts other ones at a much higher level. So, and then the term “twice exceptional” really didn’t enter the lexicon professionally until the late ’90s. You know, we used to treat gifted kids as this thing over here and learning difference kids as a thing over here, and now we realize that a brain that is different in one thing is likely to be different in other things, so there are a lot of autistic kids out there who don’t think they’re that smart, right? Because, well, I only know a lot about coding or about the periodic table or about medieval literature. Well, let’s spend some time in that because if your brain is exceptional in one thing, then we can adapt your education and maybe even your professional development to better suit those needs because that’s a part of who you are just as much as being autistic.
JT:
Wow, that is so interesting. So, and thank you for introducing yourself as someone who is also twice exceptional, and a little bit about your journey. And I’m wondering, is that the path that you see most often, where it’s kids who are super smart, they they they’re soaring, everything’s going great until the wheels fall off, or do you ever see it flipped, where they’re struggling. They’re struggling. They’re struggling early on, and then they don’t realize the giftedness and all the gifts that come with it later.
MZ:
So there’s sort of you could take your twice exceptional kids, and there’s sort of three tracks. So type A is what I describe: the kids who soar and then they. Right there’s an undiagnosed learning difference the whole time, but you know your brain is really good at picking up the pieces until it can’t, right? So it’s like okay, all right, there that that’s a thing. The second type or type B is the kids whose weaknesses outweigh their strengths. So I work with a young, I worked with a young woman who she came to me with diagnoses of dyslexia and dysgraphia, right? So a reading and a writing disability. And after working with her for a while, I was like, “Wow, she’s an incredible storyteller. I was like, “Have you ever gotten an IQ test? She goes, “No, I mean, like, school thinks I’m stupid, right? And so I was like, “Well, let’s do let’s do a whisk. Let’s let’s get an IQ score on you. Her verbal IQ score was in the 140s.
JT:
Wow!
MZ:
But nobody had ever thought to look because her weaknesses outweighed her strengths, right? Like, how could this kid with dyslexia have a high verbal IQ? Well, verbal is words, right? It’s your Broca’s area, it’s your Vernicky’s area. They’re doing their jobs, but if that can’t express for whatever reason, right? Well, doesn’t mean the intelligence isn’t in there. It just needs to come out a different way. We gave this young woman a voice to text system, and all of a sudden she was in AP English. I mean, it was like basically within a semester. So those are the sort of things. Like if we always we we don’t want to be deficit detectives, right? We want to search for strengths. So, you know, I like in one study, and this is a different kind of exceptionality, but it’s worth mentioning here. In one study, 81% of kids who are in wheelchairs and thus have IEPs have not had their IQs tested. 81% So, think about how many kids with neurodivergences aren’t being noticed because all we see, to be blunt, is the freaking wheelchair, right? So we need to make sure that we are casting a wide net, and then we get type C, and and this is sort of it’s a little term of art in the field. So there’s a concept called the the gifted C. So Dr. Jenny, imagine if you would that you are a bright young woman sitting in class, and you’re the the stuff is easy. So you don’t really pay great attention. You don’t do class participation, and then you forget the homework, and homework kind of sucks. You don’t do the homework, but every time there’s a test or a quiz or a paper, you get an A on it. Given that tests and papers and quizzes are weighted one way, and homework and class participation are weighted another way, if you get hundreds on all the ones and zeros on all the others, what grade do you think that averages out to?
JT:
It definitely depends on how they’re weighting it, right? But for a lot of, I mean, for much of school, it’s all about the tests and the quizzes. It doesn’t matter how often you raise your hand.
MZ:
Yeah.
JT:
So I would think I was rocking it if I’m doing great on all the tests and quizzes, and I would say, well, I probably don’t have to do the other stuff, right?
MZ:
You nailed it. Except the teachers or the administration is like, well, class participation in homework matters, so we’re giving you zeros for those things. So even though you got A’s in all your tests, you end up getting a C for the class because the things balance each other out. Now, if you looked at a kid who was getting straight 70 fives across the board, you would not say that’s a gifted kid,
JT:
right?
MZ:
Right, because you know we’ll see students, an average student, you got to sort of dig into the data a little bit. This also manifests in a kid who, like, say, is a really strong STEM student and not so great in the humanities. So he gets straight A’s in their STEM classes and Cs and Ds in their in their humanities classes, and that kid’s GPA is like 2.7. So once again, that’s not a gifted kid. When I talk to schools, I’m like, I talk to doctors, and I’m like, is there a kid in your building who like pisses you guys off? And they’re like, oh my gosh, Harold, right? And like, because the STEM teacher’s like, oh, he’s the best chem student on the planet. And single teacher’s like, I would lock him in a closet if I could, right? So that’s sort of the unofficial third type is this type C where high highs and low lows look average in summation, and we tend to miss those kids because, you know, if all you see is a C, you don’t you don’t look any deeper.
JT:
Right, right. Oh, that’s such a good point, and I think especially for any professionals listening, the emphasis on you have to dig deeper to actually figure out what’s going on sounds simple, but it’s so often missed and overlooked. And I love your wheelchair example because working with the autistic population for so many years, I mean, there were so many kids I’ve worked with who are so smart. I mean, just so smart. But if they don’t have the verbal abilities to tell us, and they don’t have the fine motor skills to take a test the way most traditional kids would, then there’s no way of knowing how genius that individual is, and then they’re feeling not great about the. Because everyone’s just ignoring them, and and that shouldn’t be the case for anyone.
MZ:
It’s a, I mean, we live in such a verbal society, right? And so somebody like me, who’s an extrovert, and my gifts are in the verbal space. I, it is clear I’m smart. Also, I look a little smarter than I actually am because I’m so articulate, and because I will fill up a whole room full of talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. I mean, I’m a cisgender heterosexual white male. Of course, I’m going to talk a lot, right? I mean, how much time do you have, Doctor Jenny? I will dissemble on many things, but like those are like everybody deserves a seat at the table, and that means our kids who are more introverted, or our kids who need assisted communication devices, kids who are writers instead of speakers-you know-casting a wide net, giving kids multiple ways to show their work, puts more seats at the table because then we’re honoring more communication styles, which honor more ways of expressing knowledge and information, which is kind of the whole point, right?
JT:
Oh, that’s awesome! That’s beautiful, and it also emphasizes how easy it is for kids to fall right under the mat, right? Yeah, and that doesn’t feel good for anyone. So, I’m assuming you work with a lot of families as well. And so, if someone is maybe listening to this and is thinking, “Huh, maybe my child might be twice exceptional, do you have any advice that you would give to those parents.
MZ:
So data is our friend, right? So we want to collect as much data as we can, and that’s why IQ tests are important in conjunction with achievement testing, your MAP testing, right? Because a kid might be brilliant and just not do well in school. One of the biggest things I push back in in my line of work is that you know all gifted kids do well in school? Certainly not true. Any more so than if you’re autistic, you can’t do well in school, right? Like we need to you know when you’re working with neurodivergent kids, the environment is the intervention. A school that gets your autistic learner, your kid will look smarter, will make more friends, will be a better behavioral kid because you’ve created an environment that works for that kid, rather than inverting that thing where just like you are the roundest of pegs and I will fit you into this square hole by God, because we’re creating friction and stress, and you know everybody’s working harder than they should. Like I was like, we cannot work with kids and not work hard, but I would much rather us work smart, right?
JT:
Yeah.
MZ:
Um. So, so getting the IQ test is really important, and also we always want to lead with kids’ strengths, right? Um, strengths and interests. There’s this idea here, right? That like schools like ah, you’re a brilliant coder. You can do C plus plus and Scratch and Java. Amazing. None of that matters because you can’t read Beowulf. Who? I mean, I happen to love Beowulf. I think it’s a classic, and I can’t code for for my life. I can code my way out of a paper bag, but my teachers played to my strengths in the written word, and I didn’t fail out of middle school because I couldn’t write code. Because people like, oh, that’s something you’re not so good at, right? Not all people are gifted, but every single person on this planet has gifts, right? So if we play to people’s gifts, like you know, I like I’m an above average cook, right? I’m not a gifted chef. I’m not Bobby Flay. Well, you give me a recipe you have, you know, you know, Doctor Jenny. If you’re coming over for a dinner party, you’re gonna have a dang good meal. You will enjoy yourself, right? And so, like, I have a gift in the kitchen, but I’m not gonna say I’m gifted. But that’s kind of the point, right? It’s like the better kids feel, the better kids do.
JT:
Yes, yes, that should be on a shirt somewhere for sure.
MZ:
Yeah,
JT:
it’s a and it’s not specific to the twice exceptional. You don’t have to have that classification. It’s literally for all humans. When you feel good, you will do better.
MZ:
And this is-I mean-you teed me up beautifully for this because really, because gifted education in particular has this legacy of being sort of elitist, right? And I always say that it’s not an elitist, but it is different, right? I have a buddy from high school from college who’s six foot nine, right? He is so the average American male, right, is five foot nine. So one standard deviation is four inches. So definitely, someone who’s six foot one is taller than someone who’s five foot nine. But like you know, they’re still they could both play on a basketball team. But then another standard deviation, yeah, six foot five. Okay, that is significantly taller. And my buddy is a third. Third standard deviation out, right, and like he can reach things off the top shelf very well, right, but he also like he can’t buy suits for weddings in the store because no store sells suits for a guy who’s six foot nine, and he can’t buy shoes with laces because he’s like, dude, it’s like a mile and a half journey down there to tie my dang shoes, so he just does slip-ons. Like his life isn’t better or worse, but it is quantifiably different, right? But what we find as it pertains to education is that the best practices for neurodivergent learners are just the best practices for learners, right? This is universal design. If every kid had strength-based education and interest-based education. I don’t think it’s melodramatic to say every kid in this country would do better, right? Because if you don’t want to read Beowulf, but you want to read Arthur Conan Doyle, or if you want to read The House on Mango Street, or if you want to read graphic novels, then what matters is you are reading, you are building those skills of critical thinking, perspective taking, grit, resilience-all those things-and you are going to build those skills faster, and they’re going to generalize more doing the things you want to do rather than being forced to do something that we’ve arbitrarily decided that you need to learn Spanish. So, okay, Doctor Jenny, chop, chop, do Spanish with the Spanish, chop, chop, right? Don’t ask me to speak anymore. I I don’t I know very little, but like that’s but like I you know the old joke. It’s like oak trees don’t have cherry tree deficiency syndrome, right?
JT:
This joke, but I’m excited to hear.
MZ:
Right. So it’s like if your autistic kiddo has a special interest in, let’s say, graphic design, right, and can quote you chapter and verse on graphic design, then I want to put that kid in art classes. I want to help that kid really test the limits of what that is, and I’m gonna bring him along in say math and science, maybe a little slower. It doesn’t mean I don’t teach it to him. It just means like, hey, dude, like if you’re gonna be a graphic designer, you need to know like how to set up a website and like how to price these things, and that’s math in action, right? So, like, it’s those little things. It’s just an extra tweak lowers the barrier to entry and increases engagement. And I don’t think there’s a single parent or teacher on this planet who doesn’t want easier access and more engagement, right?
JT:
Yes, exactly. That that’s what we’re all going for, and that’s what can feel so hard sometimes, but I think your recommendation is so simple. Yeah, I mean it’s doable. It’s so doable, but it is a mindset shift for people to have to put it into action. And gosh, I hope that someone policy related is listening to this right now because you know, I remember. So I used to teach for way, way, way back in the day in Miami-Dade County Public Schools.
MZ:
Oh, yay!
JT:
Yep, and there was an initiative back then for everyone was supposed to be every classroom. It was like we standardized everything, so it didn’t matter what you know challenges you have. Everyone was literally on the same page of the textbook the same day, and it was just so frustrating for everybody. And it was the goal was to to universally make it a more even playing field, right? But if the tweak instead of that, instead of we all have to be on the same page, reading the same book, doing the exact same thing, if it could be let’s play to our strengths a little more. If that was the piece that was then put in place across the board to every school everywhere, I couldn’t agree more. That would make a tremendous difference in the lives of all students.
MZ:
Yeah, right. And when kids do better in school, they feel better. They get referral fewer referrals to people like me and you, right? So we’re like, oh, good, less work for us, please. Like, please put me out of a job, like.
JT:
And when you’re doing things that you love, and usually you-that’s how you meet other people, right? Who you connect with, so then social relationships can develop from that, and all sorts of things. That is incredible. Okay, so I know, especially after hearing you describe the three buckets, which I think is so fascinating. And like with everything that’s related to neurodivergence, it means we really can’t say like this. Well, except for going towards passions and strengths, like you you can’t really say this one thing. Works for all kids or all humans, but is there anything that you can think of that really helps the twice exceptional population thrive that isn’t about academics or achievement?
MZ:
I love that. So, so as a so as a clinical psychologist, and I do all of my work virtually. During COVID was tough. COVID was really hard on a lot of my clients. Neurodivergent people, as a general rule, have a strong sense of justice, and they tend to feel very anxious. So, like, I got a lot of people were like, “The world is unsafe. The world is unfair. How am I supposed to do calculus right now? Like, and I’m like, “Yeah, I don’t know. Right? That’s so. One of the things I had a lot of my kids do during the COVID times was bake. And so, like, bake. on the surface, Doctor Jenny, right? Like, what’s what’s what’s your favorite baked good?
JT:
I love a good banana bread.
MZ:
See, we love banana bread, right? So, right. So, if I had you bake banana bread, the surface level, or if that is, you’re just baking. Okay, but let’s think about the skills one uses to bake: time management, right? Baking really require you got to be in the oven for this amount of time. Measuring, which is math, right? You need two tablespoons of this. You need four eggs. You need one and a half cups of flour. It’s also reading, reading comprehension, right? Because you have to read the recipe or auditorially process it if you can’t read it yourself, right? Then you’ve got frustration tolerance because I don’t know about you, but the reason I like to cook, not bake, is I baking is so exact.
JT:
Yes,.
MZ:
And I’m like, oh, like I mean, listen, I’m best at like sauces and grilling and chili stuff. That’s like it kind of doesn’t matter if you just throw a bunch of stuff in there. Like you can figure it out. Baking is like if you know it’s 1.25 tablespoons of this. God help you if it’s 1.3 tablespoons ruined.
JT:
Ruin the whole banana cake. Yep.
MZ:
I just wanted my banana bread. I just like I just wanted my banana bread. So I have a lot of, and one of my kids, and you know, he’s he’s he’s a twice exceptional kid. He’s autistic and gifted, and and like I had him bake all these things, like because he’s a big Lord of the Rings guy, and so there’s a Lord of the Rings cookbook. So we were baking all the things referenced in Lord of the Rings, and what we said, he’s like, “You sly dog, you’re you’re teaching me things. I’m like me, sir. I am not an educator. He’s like, oh no no no no. He’s like I had to do math. I had to I had to calculate things. You made me do math. I’m like did did I now? You know you sly dog. You got me monologuing, right? I mean, so like this is-it’s a fun way of explaining. Like, I would love to see more kids do more project-based learning, more passion projects. Like, you know, one of the coolest things that happened to me as a kid, like, like science fair. I really was-I really wanted to do something on comets, right? And my mom was like, “Cool. If you want to learn something about comets, find someone who can teach you more about comets than I can. So I there was this newfangled thing in the ’90s called email. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it. Can you imagine I was actually that way? Good lord, be the worst guest ever. But I found a professor at a local college. He’s like, “Yeah, I’m an expert in that. Come in. So I I followed him around the lab for two hours, and he told me all the things, and like then I made comments for my for my science fair project, and it’s the sort of thing like it it was so much more than here’s the paper, here’s the poster board. It was like I understand this. I got my hands dirty, and I can still tell you today what comments are made of and why they work, much more so than if I had done like the baking soda volcano, right? So, like, that’s the thing. It’s broadly speaking, we have turned our educational system into quantity at the expense of quality.
JT:
Yes.
MZ:
Like no kid needs to do 50 math problems to practice. No kid needs to write the same sentence 93 times. Like it’s, you know, one of the things I talk about with my therapist all all the time is that like there’s this sort of illusion. There’s a certain like seduction of being busy. I’m busy. I must be accomplishing something, right? Right. But not all work is created equal. If a kid can write a sentence three times, he doesn’t need to write it 90 more times. If a young if a young girl like she’s like, yes, I figure out how to hit this kind of putt in golf. I don’t need. To hit that putt 93 times, like cool. Let’s work on chipping. Let’s work on driving. Let’s work on flop shots. Like that’s the thing. So like, let us lower the barrier to exit tickets. Like let us like make it easier for kids to show competence because the sooner they show competence, the easier it is to help them show mastery. Mastery is not developed through repetition. Mastery is developed through meaningful challenge, right? So if I have an autistic client who, you know, we’ll lean on the cliche a little bit here. Like social is tough, right? I’m not going to have my autistic kiddo go to prom first,
JT:
Right.
MZ:
Client could not swim when I threw him into the deep end of the ocean. Duh! Right, but I’m like, okay, I want you to try and talk to somebody at lunch that you don’t usually talk to. I want you to text somebody after school. I want you to join a Minecraft server with some kids from school, and then we build that up. And like you said, interest-based things tend to create your people, right? So, like, hey, join coding club, join esports, right? All my all my neuro spicy kiddos were on esports teams. They’re like finally, like, I get what the football players have been about, like all this like camaraderie and like the butt slapping and like, yeah, bro, you got this, dude. They’re like, but you know, they’re doing an League of Legends or Rocket League, right? As opposed to you know playing, you know, Western Central and football, right? But it’s the same general idea, because like then you find your people, and now you feel supported, and now maybe we’ve crossed the threshold where that kid can go to prom, or you know join a fraternity, or go to a sleepover, or whatever the thing might be, but like it’s hard, you know, you know the old line: like if you want to go fast, go by yourself. If you want to go far, go with a group.
JT:
Yep, absolutely, and that is such a great example because you’re right. When because football is such a a known organized activity, and they all look like they’re having so fun. For everyone who’s not part of that team, there’s like a little bit of envy and a little bit of no, it’s probably not cool. And until you find your own people and you realize, wow, people can be great, but you you need to find them, and usually it is around those shared interests. And I love everything you’re saying about project based learning because that’s how you can really get in there. And especially with AI and ChatGPT and all these tools nowadays, anyone can come up with a paper on something, right? Right. It’s so easy. That shouldn’t be something that we’re expecting of kids anymore. Like it feels like it’s time to bring everything to the next level. With let’s do it. Let’s get our hands dirty. Let’s measure the things. And when you’re doing the things that you love, then the things that are harder. And your baking example, Doctor Matt, was also so great because you’re loving the end product. You’ll do anything to get to the banana bread, right? So you will figure out the math and all the other pieces that you might not be great at on your way to getting there. That’s awesome.
MZ:
Yeah. When I used to work at a school for twice exceptional learners, and we had a great project-based teacher. And it’s so funny because he’s number. He’s like, project-based learning is fundamentally about social emotional learning. He’s like, that’s the first thing because you had all these super bright kids. He’s like, all right, guys, we’re going to talk about taking pictures. We’re going to talk about photography, and they were like, okay, well that makes sense. Like, so here, here’s a different question. She’s like, no, no, no. We’re going to start with aperture. We’re going to start with what is the history of camera. Where does the word camera come from, right? And then he’s like, these are $500 Nikon’s. Like, you have to treat these with care and dignity. How do you store your tools? Like, he like the kids wanted to, when they were building things, they were like wanted to jump right in with the hammers and nails. He’s like, “Nope, you got to show me you know how to use a bandsaw. If you’re going to use a bandsaw, you got to show me safety. Yes, and it naturally, organically teaches resilience and teamwork and communication, and as he was fond of saying, humility, because you’ve got a kid who’s memorized the periodic table, and in a lot of educational environments, that’s all you’ll ever need. I mean, you put in neutral cruise to graduation. He’s like, “Cool, you know the periodic table, but why does potassium do that, and how does that factor into you trying to build an electric light? And these kids like, “But, but practical knowledge that was that was never no. I’ve memorized it. I’m very good at pub quiz. I you know, but like you said, I mean, in the generative AI world, knowledge has never been so accessible to so many. So we’re rapidly entering into a world where it’s not just knowing; it’s being able to do stuff with what you know. And if you’re going to be a functional member of society in 2026 and on forward, you have to be able to think outside the box. You have to be able to connect the dots, and those are that’s the neurodivergent brain. We are outside the box thinkers, right? So if we can get our kids a seat at the table as kids, then they’re going to have to the table as adults, right? And that’s that’s ultimately, I mean, pointing them towards that future. I mean, it’s it’s a brave new world, but I think we’re set up pretty well to to get our kids ready for it.
JT:
I totally agree. I totally agree. And I’m even thinking, Dr. Bennett, I saw an article, and this was a while ago, this was definitely pre ChatGPT, pre AI era, but an article that talked about what Fortune 500 companies are looking for in employees, and it really struck me back then because what they’re look they are looking for neurodivergent brains, they are looking for people who can think outside the box, who can come up with solutions, who can work well with others, who can. So it’s everything you’re saying. It’s just it is so important, and so that makes me think about the neurodivergent kids, and you phrased it perfectly. If they have a seat at the table as a child, they will grow up to have a seat at the table. I’m wondering about twice exceptional adults who maybe didn’t know that they were that they fell sort of in this spectrum. Do you see a lot of that in your work?
JT:
Every probably three out of five times when I assess a kid, the adult comes. We’re like, “Do you think I also could be neurodivergent? I’m like, “Well, in our field, we call this apple tree syndrome. So you tell me, boss, like, because we know so much more about this stuff now, and it’s out there more. I mean, there’s online communities. I mean, you know, it’s it’s it’s so much more visible. So, I mean, I would have loved to diagnose these adults as kids, but we can’t go back in time, right? So it’s like you know, like we might as well start from now. And a lot of adults I’ll go through, like so. There’s um, there’s a lot of people in the world who have been told their whole life they’re horses, but they’re actually zebras, and zebras and horses look alike, right? They’re equine; they can eat some of the same things, right? But zebras need very specific things to thrive, not just survive. If you put a zebra in a horse pen, it will survive, right? It will eat the grain, it will canter, it will do the things. But a zebra is never not a horse, right? And so, if a zebra is going to thrive, it needs a very specific environment and things within that environment, right? So, you know, not to beat not to beat the drum too much on this, but the environment becomes the intervention, right? So if you’ve been told your whole life you’re a horse, but you wonder why you can’t do what horses, other horses do, or do it as well, chances are you’re probably a zebra, and you’ve probably been a zebra the whole time, right? Because like if we could distill being neurodivergent into one thing, and I’m sure you see this with your kiddos, is that easy things are hard for us, and hard things are easy for us. You got a kid who’s like, “Oh, I can fix your computer in seven minutes, but I’ll have a panic attack asking you to pay me to fix the computer.
JT:
Absolutely.
MZ:
Interpersonal. No, no, no. I mean, like, and and it’s. I mean, we’re leaning on a bit of a cliche here, but cliches become cliches for a reason, right? And and it’s one of those things. Like, okay, if I know where you are, I can help you build those skills towards those ends, right? Like one of the adults I work with, he’s a you know, he does sort of like that contract auto repair stuff, and like it was really hard for him to ask for money. So we printed out a sheet. I did this much for this much, and like, and so he just hands it to them, and they go, “Okay, well, you did this much for this many hours. You bought these things. So based on your sheet, I think I owe you $730. Thumbs up, tap the car bra, move on with our lives, right? And so, I mean, like, tell me that doesn’t work. Tell me, like, right? I mean…
JT:
Oh, I love that. Okay, so a lot of the strategies to support twice exceptional adults are essentially the same as kids, right? Because all humans need the same things. I’m curious for those families, for the three out of five parents who, you know, ask you after their child gets diagnosed. Do you feel like is there a benefit? Do you think for adults to seek the diagnosis, or do you think just sort of. Having an idea of how to support themselves, does that sort of take it where it needs to go?
MZ:
So, you know, so parents will still say to me, like, “Well, I don’t want my kid to be diagnosed. I don’t want my kid to be labeled.
JT:
Right.
MZ:
Sure. Right. There are people I cannot sit here and say from my place of immense privilege that all communities and schools treat diagnosis equally, and sure, let’s own that. But before I was diagnosed as ADHD, and I had that label, well, the world labeled me. I was a scatterbrain. I was a space cadet. I was a slacker.
JT:
Interesting.
MZ:
He’ll never work to his potential unless he Buckles down, focuses, right? That like sort of puritanical, like you are good if you work hard mindset that Western culture has, which is like makes me kind of want to throw up in my mouth a little bit, right? Yeah, right. So the world’s going to label you. You might as well have a counter narrative that’s based in science, right? Like, actually, I keep using myself as an example, but it’s a really good, it’s a really good one. Like, one of my other neurodivergences, Doctor Jenny, is I’m colorblind.
JT:
Ooh.
MZ:
Like, you are wearing a lovely zip up, and I would guess purple.
JT:
Blue. It’s a it’s a it’s like a paisley paisley blue. Yeah,
MZ:
Right. So if you’re the if you’re like me and you didn’t know color blindness was a thing, you would just think you’re stupid because what’s the first thing they teach you in school? Here are the colors, and I was like, which one’s blue? They’re like that one. I was like, “Is it right? I couldn’t tell colors apart. I have what’s called bichromic deficiency, and I can’t tell colors apart. But so I could walk around thinking I’m a horse. I’m just the horse that can’t see color. But turns out this zebra can’t see colors or can’t tell colors apart. And you know, I mean, like really, isn’t like all psychology boiled down to we name it to tame it, right? So like, if you have a label for yourself, like, oh, I’m not stupid because I can’t see colors. My rods and combs literally don’t transmit the right data to my occipital lobe. Oh, you know, like one of my best friends from college, she has that um, that genetic thing where she tastes cilantro as soap.
JT:
Oh, interesting. Yeah.
MZ:
But before she knew that was a thing, she’s like, “Am I crazy? Like, is there soap in this food? She would like look around the room and be like, “Nobody else seems to be like dying. Because like she was like, “Mom, like, can I wash the dishes next time? Mom’s like, “Sure. So, like, next time, I’m like, “No, it’s soapy again. You think you were losing your mind, right? So there is power in diagnosis because it provides us and a lens through to see the world and see our behavior in that world.
JT:
Yeah, I love that. Okay, I’m a big fan of myth busting, and I feel like we’ve already busted a few myths in this conversation. But I’m just curious: is there one common myth or misconception about giftedness or neurodivergence or anything within the twice exceptional realm that you can think of that you would love to just bust for us today.
MZ:
How much time do we have? So I’ll shouts out to my my friends in North Carolina. The so pretty much every state has a state gifted organization, and North Carolina gifted. The name of their podcast is “They’ll Be Fine” because that’s the thing they often say about gifted learners. They’ll be fine, right? Maybe, but also maybe not, right? And there’s a lot of people who are like, who will say, “Like I used to be gifted. Nah, dude, your brain is still different, but you didn’t get an educational environment that supported that stuff, right? Like my buddy who’s six foot nine trying to buy suits at men’s wear house. It’s not his fault. He’s six foot nine. He has to buy a go to a store that has suits for somebody his size, right? You know, if you grade the squirrel on its ability to ability to fly, it will always fail the test. So, gifted education is special education. That’s why we loop it under the umbrella of neurodiversity, because nobody would see, let’s say, a nonverbal autistic kid and say, “Well, this kid doesn’t need special education support, because of course they do, right? Gifted education is no different. Like if you want somebody to do well, you have to adapt education up to a tier three educational model to give them what they need. And the funny thing is, Dr. Jenny is like we do that well in sports and the arts, right? Like if. Your kiddo is eight, and he’s crushing you eight soccer. We don’t say, “Well, you have to keep dominating and scoring seven goals a game. They move him up to you 10, right? The youngest woman to win an Academy Award was 11 years old. They say, “Well, you can’t be an actress until you’re 18, young lady. I mean, so like, why do we get so stuck on this in education? Like, if your autistic client can you know can calculate mental math up into multivariate calculus, I don’t need this kid in pre-algebra. I need that kid to be taking grad level math because the only way we’re going to really figure out whatever their ceiling is is to meet them where they are and nudge them in that direction. Not the now we’ll all turn the page together, boys and girls.
JT:
Oh, I think it’s so right, and it does show the education system it needs to catch up with the rest of the world, which does aim to meet kids where they are and to give them the support they need in the moment, regardless of what it’s quote unquote supposed to be, because I feel like a lot of us have moved past that idea, but there is there is some norm, some expectation all around the supposed tos, and I wish we could just get rid of those once and for all.
MZ:
You know, the only word I don’t let my clients say in therapy: Should.
JT:
Ah, it’s a good one to ban.
MZ:
Right? Because it’s all the possibility of could plus shame. That’s how I always see Dr. Jane. I speak in bumper stickers, right?
JT:
I’m kind of creating a list here. They’re really good,
MZ:
But it’s like you know, if you said to yeah, like me. I have two kids. My daughter is seven and a half. My son is five and a half. My daughter is struggling to learn how to ride a bike without training wheels, right? But if I said, “Well, you’re almost eight. You should be able to ride a bike without training wheels now, she would break her clavicle, and then I have to take her to the hospital, and she would never ride a bike again. If it takes me more time to teach her how to do that, so someday she can ride her bike, then that’s my job as a parent. And like she just moved up to the highest level in her swim class, and like she’s the youngest kid in there, and that is also part of the mosaic of who she is, right? So like, you know, and this is this is like, autism can come with so much trauma around the diagnosis, around trying to retrofit the world to meet the needs of your kiddo, and so many parents get stuck in this. Like, I have to survive. I, you know, like I have to make I have to make the world suck less for my kid, and less. I get it, like 1,000% I’m with you on that. But like, your kids are wonderful and special. They have strengths and interests, and like, don’t forget those things. Like, if your kid, like, like one of my one of the moms of one of the autistic clients I work with she she blogs on her son her his safe food is chicken nuggets right as many autistic kids right so she blogs every time they go to a place like the chicken nuggets at this friendly’s are better than the chicken nuggets at this friendly’s but I like the Applebee’s chicken nuggets more than I like the GGI Fridays chicken nuggets, like lean into it, right? Then this kid’s like, mom, mom, mom, can we do the chicken nugget thing, right? And they’ve found a way to find not only empowerment in that, but like, dare I even say joy, right?
MZ:
And that’s like, you know, so much of the work we do as mental health people, right, is like that dialectic thinking, right? Like holding two thoughts in our head, like it can be hard, almost impossible to raise a neurodivergent kiddo. But there are moments of unique joy in that journey that, like, just keep your eyes open for them because if you find them, you know, then it’s you know it’s really it’s like worth its weight in gold.
JT:
Yes, yes, I love that, and it it makes me think about the the it’s fine or everything’s fine the the motto you used of the the gift to give they’ll be fine, but we should all be aiming for more than fine, right? All of us, in us, ourselves, our kids, our colleagues.
MZ:
Yep.
JT:
Fine should not be the goal. We we can do better than that. Yeah.
MZ:
My my old mentor used to say that fine is an acronym for freaked out, insecure, neurotic, and emotional. So it’s like often do you have like a therapy client coming? Like, hey, I’m fine. I was like freaked out, insecure, neurotic, and emotional. So tell me more about being fine, right? And I mean, as a kid who was a gifted kid who grew up being fine, I was often freaked. Doubt neurotic and emotional. I mean, like, because you know, there’s this idea of what we call contingent worthiness. I only have value if I succeed. I mean, as a gifted kid, it’s like you’re basically a trained seal. Like, you know, they would trot me out when the state like, oh, here’s one of our brightest learners, young Matt Sekreski. You know, I got a finger two knuckles deep in my nose, and I’m drawing cartoons on the paper. Like, hello, like you know, it really becomes this thing. It’s like, you know, your brain helps you do amazing things, but your value is intrinsic to who you are, not just what you can do. And you know, and I think that like traditionally the way we’ve worked with autistic kiddos, right? I mean, has been that sort of ABA mindset of like, well, let’s train them to do something. That’s like this sort of like weird internalized capitalism. Like, you know, if you know if this kiddo wants to sort cars all day, cool, right? That you know, if that brings you joy, and maybe we can find a way to turn that into something at some point. I’m not sure what that would be, but like, let’s find a way to do that. Let’s ask those questions, right? And you know, I mean, that’s anyway, you know, that’s why I like what you do so much because I feel like you intrinsically ask those questions, right? Like, how do we unlock what’s next for this kiddo, rather than like all they’re ever going to do is sort these cards. End of story, right?
JT:
Yes, yes, and I mean sorting can turn into so many things, right? Sort these cards, sort these. There’s so many things to sort, and then when you start ranking like the family with the chicken nuggets, I mean that’s a whole next level skill. So, you know, there’s always so much possibility and potential if we support it and if we give it the the environment that it needs to really flourish.
MZ:
Yeah.
JT:
Dr Matt, this is such a great conversation. I feel like we could talk for a very long time, but I want to be respectful of your time. So, last question for people who want to follow you or your work: Where can they find you?
MZ:
So, I am chronically online. We have we have two. I have sort of two business entities in the neurodivergent community. So the first is our clinical practice, which is the Neurodiversity Collective. So that’s if you’re like my kid would benefit from this kind of therapy. We have several providers that you know we’re neurodivergent affirming. We’re all neurodivergent ourselves. Like so, lots of reminders for sessions. A lot of atypical looking therapy, right? I cannot tell you how often I’ve listened to for a therapy session kid like read me their D and D fan fiction, and then I’m like, and I has your social anxiety at the at the end of the session, and so, but and then on the other side of that, you know, if you need me for your organization, your your school, your nonprofit, your community center, your mental health collective, like then that’s drmattzakreski.com because then I will come out and do that. Like right now, right now I’m speaking to you from Omaha, Nebraska, because I’m keynoting the Nebraska Gifted Conference, right? So, you know I have therapy clients in Nebraska, and now I’m helping over 250 teachers in this beautiful state to go back to all their towns to help more kids. And like, so sometimes we scale up our impact to help more people at once. So yeah, so therapy is neurodiversity collective. Speaking is Dr. Matt Zakreski? Just Google me. A very unique name. I’m easy to find.
JT:
You know. And on that note, would you mind just spelling your last name for anyone who’s listening who might benefit from that?
MZ:
So Z as in zebra, which you know, you know, online with what we said before, A K R E S K I.
JT:
Amazing, amazing, Dr. Matt. Thank you so much for joining us today on exploring different brains and for the clarity, the compassion, and humor that you bring to this conversation about twice exceptionality. I know that this will resonate with so many of our listeners, and to everyone listening, thank you for spending your time with us. If you found today’s episode helpful, feel free to share it with someone who might need it. And as always, keep getting curious about different brains. Until next time,
MZ:
bye.
JT:
Bye.