Host Bea Moise continues her chat with author and accessibility expert Alex Norman.
Alex Norman is the founder and CEO of Access Built, a leading agency helping organizations reimagine environments to be more inclusive. As the author of Boundless: Real Stories and Practical Strategies for Inclusive Living, Alex blends powerful life stories with actionable design strategies. A former global advertising and innovation leader, Alex now helps organizations uncover and remove the “friction points” in the built world. His work, rooted in personal experience and collaboration with design leaders, challenges audiences to see accessibility not as compliance but as a catalyst for innovation, inclusion, and human potential.
For more about Alex’s work, visit: accessbuilt.com
For more about host Bea Moise, visit: beatricemoise.com
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BEA MOISE (BM):
Hello and welcome to Exploring Different Brains. I’m Bea Moise, and I will be your host today. And you guys, I am excited to welcome back. Alex Norman, to our Part Two conversation. It was so great that we needed we had to have a part two. So welcome back, Alex. How are you? How’s it going? I’m great.
ALEX NORMAN (AN):
Thank you for inviting me back.
BM:
What do you think would be the best way to achieve greater acceptance of universal design like, what do you think? Do you think that it needs to be more of a government initiative? Do you think that it needs to be more of what you just referenced, of more self advocacy? But if it’s self advocacy, what does that look like for an individual? Do they feel safe in that environment to advocate, right? How do you know, if they say, Hey, I need this and the company’s not like, well, this person doesn’t, so you’re gone, and I’m putting this one on, like, what are your thoughts of you know, how do we achieve this greater acceptance of universal design?
AN:
Yes, it’s a big, it’s a big…
BM:
It’s a loaded question.
AN:
Loaded question. I don’t, I don’t have all the answers, but I do have a point of view. I think that, first and foremost, I think it’s the government did a really good job of laying a foundation for ADA and civil rights in general. I think, you know, of course, a. Of companies and organizations default to that minimum and don’t really go go further than that. But that’s, that’s, that’s a challenge. But I think that the the the innovation in this space, and thus the adoption of Universal Design broadly, will come from the private sector. I think that when people sort of start seeing the Universal Design in practice, in products and in spaces. People will people will see the benefits of it, and then we move forward. I really good example of this is, is, if we can, we all remember what the world was like before the iPod, where people, I don’t know if people can remember that on this, on the video, but, but, but there were buttons and there were switches on a Walkman, right? There was this clunky thing that was very difficult to use, even for the most adept right? And that was that was born, that innovation in design. Made, made just changed everybody. And no one really goes back. I mean, we just sort of left. We left that world and moved and moved ahead. I think, you know, automotive companies before Tesla, really were comfortable building these sort of complex combustion engines with 1000s of moving parts and, and, and now that we have this, this, this, this, Tesla. We’ve gotten innovation that people use. And so once you create something that’s really interesting and really amazing and really beautiful, people really don’t, don’t, don’t want to go back, right? That’s sort of, that’s, that’s part and parcel to the responsibility of companies, of large organizations, of leaders, of design professionals, architects, really kind of putting putting more universal design in practice. I think one of the other areas it may sort of, when I think about how government can be involved, I like to think about maybe sustainability, how we sort of saw that evolve over over the over the decades, and that ultimately sustainability was about saving people, right? It’s about making people live longer, healthier lives, period and and thus, that translated into a lot of language, a lot of communication, but more importantly, it came in the form of subsidies, you know, tax incentives. That said, if you’re going to, you know, if we’re going to build something where people can be healthy and live prosperous lives. We’re going to, we’re going to reward you for that. And ultimately, it’s the same pathway making something that’s more universal design is enabling people to live healthier, longer lives. You know, when we think about, you know, many, the percentage of people in America alone that that die from slipping and falling, which is, you know, people who are over the age of, you know, age of 70, etc. So, so there’s, there’s a way to design that you can get subsidized by governments that can help companies, that could basically reward companies for doing the right thing, and ultimately, companies who are innovating, who are doing, who are really leading in universal design, seeing the benefits from consumers actually purchasing and buying those products, visiting your your your hotels, and you know, in your retail organizations, people who ultimately, obviously talk about your products and services. And services, and it becomes more enjoyable for folks. Companies also, in a lot of cases, save some money. And universal design is a very interesting methodology in which you’re making, for example, a front entrance way accessible to everyone, instead of putting the the accessible entrance in the back of the building and creating a new door, or creating right little extra units that are with, you know, that are accessible, versus making everything accessible, etc. So it’s a way to to approach development and building that’s, that’s maybe creating some savings. And then, of course, you know what we like to say, it’s this, it’s it’s a risk averse option where there’s a lot of litigation associated with people slipping and falling or having lack of access on the civil rights issue, that perhaps you can save the headache and hassle of being able to design something that’s right first without having to adapt it and fix it later. So, so, so ultimately, I think we think the private sector is going to drive that. The government support would be great. But I think people will start, companies will start realizing that when you, when you, when you design better, you you, you benefit. I, I personally talk about this being the design dividend, which is basically saying that, you know, just when you design something that’s right, you know, pays forward in multiple different ways.
BM:
I love that. I think, when you were speaking and I was thinking about, yeah, there’s been a lot of different scenarios where you don’t necessarily go into it thinking, This is what’s missing, or we need. This or, you know, why isn’t this put in place? But if you’re personally dealing with it, you’re like, This is what’s missing. Why doesn’t this exist? But I will give you an example. I was trial. I was traveling abroad, and we were, we were going to the beach, or a beach, a beach side, basically. And as we’re going to the beach, there’s no railings, right? Like it’s just rocks, it’s just rocks. So we’re out of the US. We’re traveling abroad. There’s no railings to hold on to. And I’m like, this seems like a safety hazard, but it it. And I was, I was younger then, but I was thinking at the time, what happens if you actually need railing, you know, like, what? But because, I mean railing exists, and I would like to say 90% of the spaces that we go into in the US like, it’s not really something people are thinking, you know that the hand one to hold on to, like, you know, we’re not really thinking about what happens if there’s no railing. Therefore you’re not thinking about if you are a different, able bodied person who needs that railing for support, for adjustment. So I think sometimes it helps if you are in an environment where it isn’t even though you don’t need it, but it gives you that opportunity and that time to think about others. Because in that moment, I thought, what happens if you need the railing? Because I’m fine going up and I’m fine coming down, but this just seems like a bad idea, but I would have never thought of that if I didn’t experience that as an able bodied person, like I did not need the railing, but it just seemed like something was missing, and it’s because I got so used to it. So I think, you know, definitely looking into we’ve done a lot, but then there’s more we could do. Obviously, we have railings, but you and I may not need a railing, so that’s not something we would have thought about. But what are some other things that exist and we’re not even thinking about it because, again, it does not touch, you know, your personal life?
AN:
Yeah. I mean, there’s so many ways it’s such a big category. I mean, I think it’s really a part of of what I do, the work that I do in the friction point methodology, and how we help people identify frictions are and how we move them. And had to see them differently, because really hard to when you live in a we live in a society or world of abundance, it’s hard to think about its absence when it comes to when it comes to situations that you that is just unfamiliar to you. And I think you know what, we’re going to start seeing. The world, in and of itself, isn’t getting any younger, right? We’re seeing in various different pockets in around the world that are aging at an alarming rate, where in the US, even which we’re the slowest of the top 10, you know, sort of, sort of grayer Blue Zones, if they, if they call it, in the world, where people are the, what they call the Centennials, or have you, the people that are over the age, the number of people over the 200 but in by the year 2030, to share a statistic, there’ll be more people over the age of 65 and under the age of 21 in the US. Oh, wow. And they call it a silver tsunami. So what we’re going to see is more people who are functioning but yet have a high propensity for conditions right operating in society and buying stuff, traveling places, things and and the same way that the people who are who are 1015, 20 years younger. So the the need for to add railing to the beaches, the needs that just make beaches safer, period, yeah, accessible, yeah, is going to be an important part for for urban planners and urban designers to think about and that, you know, what’s really I was in a meeting not that long ago, and with a bunch of urban designers. They were talking about the plan to redesign Lower Manhattan, which, which, I’m not sure if anyone’s been to lower Manhattan. It’s like a web, a maze of small streets, and it’s very difficult to walk, let alone drive by Wall Street area and all that stuff. And they were talking about how to make it more walkable and so forth. And they were talking about ADA compliance. But I was the guy that raised the hand. I was like, It’s not about compliance. I mean, everyone is getting older. Just Just, just think about, if you were 70 walking through this, how would you? How would you, what would you interact with, and how would you interact with space? And I think all the things that you just mentioned with your example of the beach, or all the things that people just need to start thinking about and putting themselves in those in those in those shoes, and just. Just ask questions and challenge assumptions and challenge designs and plans from that lens, and you will start seeing things change across the board.
BM:
I love that, I love that. I love your work. I love, I love, I love your work. It’s just to me, it’s a need. It’s not a niche. It’s a need. Because sometimes, you know, you come up with something, it’s like, Oh, what a very specific niche. I’m like, No, this is, this is a need, and I’m glad that you again pain through purpose. You found your purpose through pain. But it’s definitely something that’s it’s paying dividends, right? Because it’s not just helping you know your family, but also others. So something else that I think you’re very interested in is basically emergency preparation for the neurodivergent population. So I am all ears. What? What do we need? And we don’t know that we need it.
AN:
I mean, look, you know, emergency situations amplify friction points for everybody, right? I mean, emergency plans need to be put in place. I’ve lived in southern Florida, so we, you know, we had floods and hurricanes, and now you have fires people. And I used to live in California, particularly, you know, there’s always been fire season.
BM:
You’re hitting all the catastrophes.
AN:
Well, I mean, well, it’s unfortunate. It’s unfortunate, though, the catastrophes are happening everywhere now. I mean New York based it midwest. I mean everyone Texas is facing it. So I mean the as I mean, not to say that, I’m not going to use the word global warming, but the moral of the story is, is that things are happening at a more accelerated rate, and it’s affecting more people more of the time, and the emergency and evacuation procedures that we’re seeing are relatively dated. They’re not necessarily accommodating for the way people live, modern in modern times. Number one, number two, they’re not accommodating people with disabilities. They’re not accommodating people with neurodivergent conditions, though, though there is, there was a recent law that was passed in Florida that they were going to, they were going to, they’re going to add a sensory alert in addition to, like, an Amber Alert, which is kind of so but more of the story is, is that that emergency situations and can can affect people in different ways, and as we talked about sound and acoustics, so alarms that have a different impact some of that, obviously, the purpose is to let people know that the situation is happening and to be aware of it. But if it’s too loud, it could also be deafening and debilitating to people. So people actually won’t move. Sound is deafening to them at the same time, emergency plans could be confusing. Evacuation pathways can be complicated, not as efficient, right? And so, so these are things that, just, you know, obviously emergencies, no emergency, is the same, right? And, and, but you but it needs to be identified that people with different conditions, different abilities, need to be safe, right? And so, what? What if you just, if you work from, from the human condition, backwards. Then you start looking at the plan that you created when, okay, well, fire, a brush fire, is doing this. You’re moving from the tragedy or the emergency forward. You start reading in the middle and realizing, okay, well, here’s some of the things that we didn’t mention that will probably keep someone safe in this in this circumstance that we should write into the plan, or that we should make available in the building, or something along those lines.
BM:
Love that. So your book, because I want to go back to it. What else can you tell us about “Boundless: real stories and practical strategies for inclusive living”, like, what else can you tell us about it without giving it away, because we want people to buy it. But what else can you tell us about it?
AN:
Well, you know, as I mentioned earlier, you know, it’s I co authored, authored it with Garrett Madison, who was living with cerebral palsy. And so, you know, I thought it was very important that we tell the story together and we share because what’s going to I needed a perspective, and I love doing research and traveling, so I really am sort of picking apart different experiences, hopefully that people can relate to. So whether or not that’s what an experience like is in a crowded airport for people with various different challenges, to Museum in Tokyo to library in New York and I could sort of travel around and sort of talk about these things and what. Happens, and ultimately, it’s aligned with with with a principle. But it’s about a conversation. It’s about talking through a perspective and then aligning it to some of the the use cases and approaches that can be taken to fix it. And it didn’t. At the end of each chapter, I have sort of a boundless action that says, Okay, well, based on, based on what we’ve, you know, what we’ve talked about, here are some of the things you can do today to, you know, to change it and to impact it. And at the end, I kind of summarize it all the same. Here’s, you know, here like, here’s a big takeaways that you can do and apply it to your daily life. And hopefully we can affect change that way. And you know, and you know, the writing a book was the hardest thing, the hardest thing ever. You know, actually, writing a book wasn’t as hard as finishing it, right? I think it was oceans of England, how long it takes to and it took me a little bit over a year to write that at the end of the book, when you edit the book, you’re a different person than when you started writing it, right? Yes, experiences you’ve Yes. So you realize it’s like, wow, you know this, I would totally think differently about this. And a good colleague and mentor of mine says, you know, that’s, that’s good idea, Alex, but that’s Book Two, and that’s, that’s one of the next, yeah, but I think more importantly, what it is is that, is that through this journey, I learned so much, and I tried to put as much both in practice. Was because we have being a through access, built in the work that we’re doing in homes and with companies. I’ve learned, I’ve tried to sort of bring to create breadcrumbs, if you will, to help people along this journey and to learn in a way that I wish I had, right so I wish, I wish I didn’t have to spend, you know, which I could pick up a book and learn about what I learned, you know, in the ground, in the real world. But there wasn’t a book, so I felt like I needed to create something for for the average person that just really interested in caring for someone with disability, have a loved one that are in the design field, in a profession, that want to make things, make, make spaces better, just just and and just a really easy entry way into entry point, into the space and walk away, you know, feeling like, you know, feeling like feeling informed and feeling knowledgeable about a topic. And it’s very simple, very easy read that you can get through, and ultimately get get a lot out of.
BM:
What is one thing, if you could say one thing that you wish that the general population knew about accessibility, like, what is one thing?
AN:
Wow. Okay, well, I first, I mean, one thing I would say, I would recommend, is for people to volunteer, volunteer, right? And, and that’s the fastest, easiest way to understand how people are living and what people are dealing with is to is to volunteer an organization, local organization, or national organization that focuses on neurodivergence or various different aspects of disability for you to learn. You know, when I during the pandemic, after, unfortunately, that’s my dad passed my mother and I would, we would go, we would deliver food to people with disabilities during the pandemic on Wednesdays. And we would it was the Center for Independent Living. We would go, we’d go pick up. We’d pile the car with with boxes of food and given a sheet of paper with everyone’s addresses on it, and we’d get them, and we used to call it save the world Wednesdays. But it was, and it was a way that I, you know, get a chance to go house to house, and you talk to people as you giving them food, and hear their stories. You know, it was really, it was really a powerful way for understanding to actually the lived experience, I think, is what you need. So I think that, you know, the answer that question is, volunteer, volunteer, that’s three. That’s three things.
BM:
I love that, though I love it. So I am going to stalk you socially. So we’re best friends now, like we’re literally best friends. So besides my crazy self, how can people learn about your work? What you about you, where are you, what’s going on? How do we find the information? And also, I would love, I do want to say this. Prior to this, I went on your website, beautifully designed, very easy to navigate. And I said to myself, what a easy to navigate website like there’s just not a lot of unnecessary fluff to derail me, because literally, if I see something else, now I’m down that rabbit hole. So I beautifully designed websites. So people beautiful design website, if anything, but how can we learn more about. You and your work?
AN:
Yeah, no. So thank you. Thank you for that. It’s been a lot of time trying to make these high concepts very simple. So, so first and foremost, obviously, go to the website, accessbuilt.com, Best Place to to reach out to me. You can schedule a free consultation with me through that that platform. You can also find me on LinkedIn. Love to love to be able to connect that in that way. Also go to Amazon to purchase the book, or to find me in the book, if you will, or some of the ideas and things we talked about in this, on this, on the show. And also I go back and forth in between Miami and also southern Florida and New York. And so, you know, I’m available, you know, for coffee whenever. You know, I’d love to be able to share. And once again, you know, you know, this is a very important topic that more people need to know about. And sometimes it’s one on one conversations that create, you know, a tsunami of impact and and affect, you know, communities and so happy to start the conversation be part of the movement that we’ve all created.
BM:
Wow, wow. Thank you for existing. Good job. To your parents. Your parents did a good job. I would like to thank your mom and your dad. They did. They did good work. They really did. Thank you for existing. Thank you for turning your pain into passion. And it’s beyond a passion. It’s a calling, it’s a level of advocacy that we all in this space strive to become and to be, because it goes beyond you, and it goes beyond your family. It goes beyond you know, whatever it is that you thought it was going to be, it is you being a, really, a good human. I like to say this to people that I feel like are good human. I’m like, You’re a good human. You know, you’re, you’re doing human work good. Thank you. Thank you for being a good human. Alex, what a pleasure, what a pleasure. We’re now besties. You’re we’re friends forever. I really hope that people reach out to you, and I hope that they check out your book boundless, real stories and practical strategies for inclusive living, available on Amazon. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being my guest. And thank you be good human.
AN:
Thank you beef appreciate appreciate it.
