Autism on the Job, with Christa Holmans | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 111
Spectrumly Speaking is also available on: Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | SoundCloud
IN THIS EPISODE:
(AUDIO – 45 minutes) In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts welcome back to the show Christa Holmans, also known as the Neurodivergent Rebel. Christa will be co-moderating, along with J.R. Reed, a free virtual panel hosted by Different Brains entitled “Autism on the Job: Navigating Neurodiversity in the Workplace” on Thursday, April 22nd at 7:00pm ET. For more info or to register click here.
For Christa’s work, visit: neurodivergentrebel.com
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com
Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com
CLICK HERE FOR PREVIOUS EPISODES
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:
HALEY MOSS (HM):
Hello, and welcome to spectrum Lee speaking. I’m Haley Moss, an author, artist, attorney and I’m autistic. Today I’m joined here by…
DR LORI BUTTS (LB):
Hi, I’m Dr. Lori Butts. I’m a psychologist and an attorney.
HM:
How are you doing?
LB:
Great. How are you doing? You’re very, very busy this month.
HM:
I am. April is always full of surprises. It is exhausting. It is educational is a celebration. It’s a little bit of everything. Usually we do a show that we just talk about feelings in April. And I think I just tried to cover them as quickly as I can.
LB:
Okay, well done.
HM:
Because we have much more exciting things going on around these parts than how I feel about April.
LB:
Exactly, exactly.
HM:
How are you doing? How is your April going?
LB:
Good, good. Just like March for me. So…
HM:
See April’s the time of year where I get tagged in 50 kajillion, Instagram posting follow these autistic people. And that’s like — Do I know you? It’s just very jarring to me having that extra attention at times. And it’s like: that’s great that you want to follow me but are you going to keep up this work outside of April? Are you actually going to pay attention to things autistic people say when it’s no longer, you know, acceptance or Awareness Month or whatever they choose to call it now?
LB:
Well, even if 10% do its profits good? Yeah.
HM:
For the record, I do call it acceptance month. It’s just that I’ve seen so much messaging that depending on the person, they will refer to it one way or another and I’m just like, okay, you do you but definitely acceptance. Okay. It’s just an adventure term. I like acceptance monthly, like the concept behind it. I just don’t know if everybody’s ready for that. So I think there’s kind of this process of like, awareness, understanding, acceptance, and then action. So that’s my view on it. So I think we have to do some people have to get some extra education before they can actually be accepting of something they don’t understand.
LB:
It sounds very well thought out and makes a lot of sense to me. That’s for sure.
HM:
I’ve been thinking this out because people ask a lot of very good questions. And there’s all sorts of wonderful educational events and opportunities during this month that I really hope that folks take advantage of. And I know our friends at Different Brains are no exception. So we have something very special in store for y’all today. So as you may or may not know, Different Brains produces this show, they are going to be hosting a free virtual panel entitled “Autism on the Job” navigating neurodiversity in the workplace. And that will be on Thursday, April 22 at 7pm. Eastern. Personally, this is a topic that I’m very excited about. I think it’s very interesting. If you want to learn more, please check out this episode’s description for the registration link. So today to talk more about neurodiversity in the workplace. More about this panel, one of the moderators is joining us today. And they are a returning favorite of ours. Christa Holmans. So for those of you who are friends of the show, you may recall that Krista is the founder of neurodivergent Consulting, and the internationally recognized neurodivergent rebel blog. They can be found advocating on Twitter as at neuro rebel, where they destroy stigma and spread positivity. Welcome back to the show.
CHRISTA HOLMANS (CH):
Thank you so much for having me. It’s always so great to come hang out with you. I feel like I’m coming home to hang out with some friends.
LB:
Oh, that’s so great. We’re happy to have you.
CH:
Thank you. I’m excited about today’s topic and the panel coming up on the on the 22nd. It’s a really good group of folks here. And we had a brainstorming call recently about it. And I’m so excited. I can’t spill the beans yet! It’s gonna be really, really fantastic and a good group of people coming together and I think it’s gonna be a really great conversation. So be sure to check that out and check out the link because it gets me really great. And it is a free event. So yeah, can’t beat the price, right?
HM:
Free event are the best events and especially when you have some really awesome people leading them. So before we really dive into the panel itself, it since it is after all about work. Can you tell us a little bit about your work history?
CH:
Yeah, well, I’m a person who’s done a lot of different things in my life. I entered the workforce in my early teens in the family business first. And if anyone has seen me, we don’t, this is not a visual podcast. So we’re just doing audio, but I have teal, purple and turquoise, peacock themed hair that is shaved into Mohawk. So hair hair, I grew up in a hair salon, with with my mom and I’m actually a beauty school dropout, believe it or not, but that’s a whole nother story. But I got work ethics at a young age. And then that was made it easy for me to transition into working outside of the family business. So then I moved from that to being a roller skating car hop. And then I ended up managing fast food and then managing and retail and I worked in computers around engineers and some of our big computer companies here in America for a while and then I went to corporate and then HR and business consulting. And now you know, I can say I’m a business owner, but it’s like, it’s been a long journey from you know, like carhop to VP of marketing to business owner slash, you know, organizational change agent. But it’s been a journey. And because, through most of that journey, I didn’t know I was neurodivergent. I didn’t know I was autistic until I was 29. I didn’t find out I had ADHD until I was 33. I had to enter these workplaces through often very untraditional and unconventional ways I’ve had to take maybe the back door, you know, so or another route in because often traditional avenues were closed to me, especially, you know, because I went through school and education without accommodation. So I didn’t move on to university or continuing education because I struggled so much with the school system, because I didn’t know, I learned differently, and there were no accommodations or changes to help the way I learned and to help me learn. So I just thought I was incapable of learning. And I was like this incompetent, broken neurotypical person for a lot of years, and that I carried that with me into the workplace and really finding out I was neurodivergent and starting to live more authentically as an autistic person. And because you spend so many hours working, you know, in your workplace, shifting how I work, and the way I work and being fully accommodated in the workplace has just transformed the way I show up and the way I am able to work and my life as a whole. And it’s gotten so much better. Because when I found out I was autistic, it was because I was kind of have a crisis point in my life, because I’ve been very untrue to myself, I’ve been pushing myself to do everything, the neurotypical way, you know, square peg in a round hole kind of a situation. And you heard that analogy, you destroy the peg. And I was a very broken up peg that needed a lot of reshaping and repair after that. But that’s fortunately a place where I’m learning a lot of neurodivergent people are, especially my age group and older, there’s this whole missing generation that you know, when the diagnostic criteria were different, we were missed. Or if you were not a boy, you also may have been missed because I was one when I grew up when they said autism was only something that impacted boys. And so that completely ignores women and non binary people and people who are gender non conforming. So that’s a whole nother issue there. But there’s the point is there’s a lot of us in the workplace, and many of us may not even know we’re neurodivergent. And so we have to change the way we do things in workplaces in order to take that into account, and be willing to kind of meet people where they are, whether they’ve got this diagnosis, or they’re going through this deliberate disability service or not, people are going to come to and say I need this. And you know, when I didn’t have a diagnosis to protect me and say I need this because I have this diagnosis, I would come to my boss and say I need this, I’d say everyone would like that. That’s not fair to give it to you. And maybe that was kind of the point, right? If everybody would like to have this, your system is broken, and maybe other people can do without the thing I need, but I really do need it, or I can’t succeed. I’m a canary in a coal mine kind of thing. And it’s it was this aha moment for me and being someone who’s been in so many different kinds of spaces and management, leadership and operations roles in different companies. It just gave me this whole different perspective of how I look at workplaces and the cultural and pop the aspects of policy that can impact people who haven’t visible differences. That’s my long winded answer.
HM:
You’re giving me a lot to think about. So I love that I’ve heard so much about identity and diagnosis and disparities and also just even touching on that internalized ableism idea to it’s just like you’ve had a journey, my friend.
CH:
I’m still on a journey, you know.
HM:
Oh for sure. But even just so far, like wow, you’ve been through quite a bit.
LB:
So how did this journey lead you to being Self Employed?
CH:
Oh, well, you know that that’s been more of a recent journey too. So I was working with some people that I truly still love and respect. And we were building a company and I got to hire my dream boss and I got to screen candidates to be the successor to take over this company, it’s really great to like hire the person you would want to work for. So I was working for my dream boss. But when COVID happened, as I’m launching a neuro diversity initiative, and everything changes, you know, I’ve got all this flight booked, the world stops in the middle of March last year. And so what I was doing in the company kind of changed it as VP of Marketing, I had been trying to get the company to where that part of the stuff was automated and work myself out of that job. So I could do this other thing, but we had to shift focus when COVID hit. And we tried really hard to keep everybody on the team for a while, but eventually, the decision had to be made. And, you know, they had to do a round of layoffs and let some people go. And in hindsight, you know, we all cried together on a zoom meeting, it was very sweet. And it was the most human experience I’ve ever had being let go from a company.
But since then we’ve had, you know, I still work with them as a contractor and my bosses, my former boss is still a close friend of mine. You know, we’ve had many discussions and I say, I’m so grateful that you let me go because I never would have left because I’m fiercely loyal employee. So you know, I wouldn’t have left on my own because I was just dedicated to this mission. And this thing we are building in this dream, but have been let go. You know, it’s funny is because I was out in my yard the day before, like, asking the universe for something, not knowing what and then the next day I was let go. And I was like, Okay, this must be it. I can’t even you know, I can’t even do anything. I have to just laugh. But, you know, I, it was like being pushed out of the nest like a little bird. And it’s like, Okay, well, I have this chance now to sink or swim, I, you know, we’re We live in an RV. So our expenses are pretty minimal, we don’t have a mortgage anymore. So we don’t need a lot to live on. So luckily, I wasn’t this ideal situation in my life, where this is the perfect time now or never to do this. And, you know, now that I lost my job and was applying for all of these full time jobs, but during Corona, there was nothing available. And I was applying for so many things.
And by the end of that I decided, you know, I know I started to kind of feel a few months in that maybe I didn’t want to go back in and work for somebody else. Because of how much ease and peace I was finding being self employed and having enough control to just like, really listened to myself and my needs and not have to, you know, ask or explain them to anyone else. It’s just been so so wonderful to me that I officially at the beginning of this month decided I’m done like, it was really just at the beginning of April, I said, you know, I’m just not even going to look anymore for full time job. I’m and this is this is my core. So this is only been a couple of weeks since I said, You know what, I’m officially not looking anymore. This is it. Because I care now more about my peace and my mental health and my physical health than anything. But for a while, you know, I wasn’t always in that place where, you know, I used to care more about I needed that security, that I thought having a full time job gave me more security. But you know, with depending on what you’re doing, it can just be so taxing on you, if you are, you know, trying to keep pace in the world, but wasn’t set up with you in mind. So I get to set it up exactly how I want it when I worked for myself. And you know, working as an independent contractor has just been really good for me, but it’s not for everyone.
HM:
I feel that a lot. So I also made that shift right before the pandemic hit. And for me, it’s both. It’s very mixed. So I love being able to work with all sorts of different people. I love being more on my own schedule, but I also miss the stability of full time. So I have a little bit of an identity crisis about it. And but I couldn’t be prouder to be a small business owner as well. So since you’re really into really cool workplace stuff, and given your history doing corporate employee retention, what do you think helps companies retain autistic employees? I know that as a matter of policy, I have different thoughts on this. I know that everybody might have something that they’re thinking about, and you mentioned how loyal you were to your previous company. So I’m really curious what you think helps organizations retain autistic people?
CH:
Yeah, well, I think organizations that retain anyone, not just neurodivergent people are generally going to be organizations that really listened to and respect and are very people-centric, instead of organizations who tend to be Just so focused on the bottom line and the bottom dollar, like, as an organization, you still have to be profitable, because otherwise you can’t pay your people. Right. But like, for example, like the company that we were building, you know, contrasted to other companies that I’ve worked in that just that, you know, our people are just leaving, and they’re silent, leaving, you don’t know why they’re leaving. You know, we had this culture where people were encouraged and open, you know, with their weaknesses and their struggles and all their strengths. And we played to our strengths. So we had people doing the things they were good at, you know, for example, in another company I worked for I, because I have multiple things going on. In addition to being autistic, I have ADHD, and I’m hyperlexic. So proofreading is not something I do, I read things paragraphs at a time, and it’s very hard for my brain to slow down enough because it just corrects the typos for me, I don’t even see them. And I had a company I worked at where this was just this big thing. And it was such a big deal that I couldn’t do this, I even paid my on my own time to take classes to try and fix it outside of work. And it was in all of my performance reviews. And it was like a reason I never got raises and it was like a whole big deal that I would have a typo in an email here or there just as a little thing as a typo in an email.
But like at my at this other company like the new company instead, it’s like we realize, okay, some people are good at this. Some people aren’t. Let’s just get Grammarly, you know, and everyone has Grammarly and then make a policy that if it’s an important document, you’re not like an email going out unless it’s an important email and you want a second set of eyes on it. You everyone in the company, it’s just as a rule has to have someone who is one of our designated proofreaders, the people who have self declare that they’re good at this, and enjoy doing it as a second set of eyes on their document before it goes out, you know if it’s a proposal or something like that. So that’s just like building accommodation that a neurodivergent person like me who has hyperlexia, or maybe dyslexia, or dyscalculia, or something like that, building it into where everyone automatically gets this accommodation, it’s already policy, nobody has to be singled out to ask for it. And it is not shameful to need this help. Because we just assume some people are better at this and other people. And the people that are better at this will be the people who do it. It’s like maximizing those skills. So like this, this is something that I found that was really essential, because for people who have any kind of disability, but especially those disabilities or those differences that are invisible, we need to be able to ask for help with the things that we need help for. And if we work in an organizational culture, where it is shameful to speak up when you struggle, or you need help, and you have to, like pretend everything’s fine all the time. And you have to put up this false wall of strength, which is like the culture I was in when I was diagnosed and led me to burning out and getting very sick. People who need help, can’t ask for help, they can’t speak up. And they are made to feel ashamed for having weaknesses. And that’s unfortunate, because every human being has weaknesses.
But when you’re neurodivergent, your weaknesses tend to be different than the weaknesses of the average person. And we are kind of, you know, like, oh, they’re bad at these things. And they highlight all the things we’re bad at, because they’re not the same things other people are bad at. And it’s like, that’s not really fair, you know, everyone’s got weaknesses. But if you have weaknesses, the rest of the population doesn’t. And you are in this culture where weaknesses is shameful. And you’re asking for help with something that other people don’t need help for. It’s even harder to speak up because people are like, I’m gonna say a word I don’t like, This isn’t how I would speak, people will say things like, You’re stupid. Why do you need to ask for help with something easy, you know, things like this, these these messages that are put on people for struggling in ways that other people don’t struggle. And this will chase people out or people you know, talking about not being able to ask for help not being able to get accommodations in the workplace. If the accommodations like for sensory situations aren’t available, the lighting is too bright, or the office is too loud, too busy, we’re doing hot desking. And it’s just chaotic, that that will chase me out of a physical workspace, the physical aspects of it and just not being able to get my needs met or having my needs be dismissed by leadership in the organization, or not being heard, those are the things that will chase me out. Or, you know, what will keep me also is knowing that I have a leadership team and organization that I can trust that they’re going to be very honest with me. And that includes new feedback, honest and open, useful feedback, good, bad, all of it that, you know, helps lets me know like how I need to continue to improve and do better but, you know, not feedback on my typos. I really I can’t do the type of thing. Sorry, there’s typos everywhere. If you follow me on social media for a while, I’m sure you’re aware of this.
LB:
I just learned so Something about you, Christa. You’re starting a new podcast on Different Brains.
CH:
I am!
LB:
Oh my — what is that? Tell us. I didn’t know I am out of the loop, I guess.
HM:
I didn’t know either. So don’t feel bad.
CH:
For a friend of mine that I had a podcast with awhile ago, JR, came to me and had this idea. And we started talking back and forth about it. And we got looped in and started talking to the wonderful folks about different with different brains about bringing this idea to life. And so it’s going to be called Examining Neurodiversity. And we’re scheduled to record the net first episode before the end of this month. And I’m really excited about it. Because, you know, as I’ve been gifted, I feel like the gift of having a platform over the past four and a half years, I started my platform because I was frustrated that I couldn’t find autistic voices and autistic perspectives. And I wanted to learn and read all of these different autistic people and perspectives. And so I started my blog to kind of amplify some of that, you know, as we said, I started on Twitter as neuro rebel because I was doing this retweeting other autistic people’s that people could read autistic voices. And that’s where I really started. But this is just another way that we can have other autistic people on the show, have conversations about some of the hard topics, I hope, some of the really deep topics and show the diversity in autistic experience autistic perspectives, how our challenges our strengths, and just really, I hope we’ll get to dive into some meaty, meaty, juicy issues. We’ve already got kind of a good wish list of people that we want to talk to. And it’s looking really good. I’m really excited about it. I don’t I know it’s like, oh, well, how many spoilers do we want to get right now? like trying to hone in on give too many spoilers, but it’s gonna be super fun.
LB:
It’s so exciting.
CH:
I can’t wait. I really can’t wait. Yeah, stay tuned for that for more on that one.
HM:
I just want to grow up to be half as cool as you.
CH:
Oh, you’re already as cool as me. I think you’re looking cool. Are you kidding me? And you’re younger than me and you like, we’re in this lawyer thing? Oh, my gosh, I think you are so cool. I really,
HM:
I just think you’re really cool. And every time you’re up to something, I’m like — you’re crushing it.
CH:
Thank you. Thank you. And
HM:
knowing that you’re moderating this panel, I’m like, that’s enough to make me want to sign up alone, let alone the fact you have an awesome lineup of panelists. So yeah, with that mentioned,
CH:
JR our co host for the new show will be in the panel too. So if you want to, if you haven’t met my co host, JR yet, come to the panel and meet JR.
HM:
JR is very cool, too.
CH:
Mm hmm. He is.
HM:
Big fan of this entire team. You have, since you have an all star lineup, What are you hoping that people take away from the upcoming panel for Different Brains that you’re moderating?
CH:
Well, I yeah, I really hope. Number one, as with everything I do people learn something. Because as you were saying earlier a little bit as I was listening in that there is this place where, you know, I say, Oh, we need acceptance, and we need appreciation. And actually, that’s not good enough, we need pride. But really, there is a gradual, like learning curves where people start out in any level of learning. As an educator, we kind of learn about this, like they start out where they kind of know a little bit, and they don’t know a lot, and then they realize how much they don’t know. And you know, they have to keep learning and climb this learning ladder. And so so many people really don’t, they maybe have heard about autistic people, but they don’t really understand the nuances of what it really means and how varied our perspectives are. And so I hope that they’ll learn something. And I hope we can challenge ideas that people already have about neurodiversity. And really, people can realize that this is something that is impacting their workplaces.
Now, it’s not something we can say, Oh, this is coming. It’s here. You know, there, there are people like I said, my age earlier, as we’re talking about earlier, who are in the workforce now. And they may not even know they’re neurodivergent. They may not know they’re autistic, they may not know they have ADHD, whatever is going on. But you know, they may realize, Oh, I’m struggling in this workplace. I’m not so happy here. And they may not know why. Because they don’t know they’re, they’ve got a difference going on, you know, they won’t maybe be able to put into words but they’ll still leave because there’s still be unhappy. So it’s like asking us to kind of look at these issues a little bit differently and realize that we can’t wait to act on this and to start making these changes. Really, you know, if you Got a diversity inclusion program in your organization now, and it hasn’t taken neurodiversity and invisible differences into account. It’s already obsolete. And that’s the thing people are like, Oh, I can wait on this. It’s like, no, you’re behind. And, you know, I think we’re gonna start seeing a lot more of this in the future where people aren’t going to stand for these spaces to not be inclusive for much longer. So it’s like, let’s let’s jump on it now and fix the problem before you made a bad example. Every HR person’s nightmare.
HM:
This is why I love you. I love how completely honest you are. And even just saying that if companies aren’t even thinking about neuro diversity, they are they’re already obsolete. I think that’s such a powerful statement.
CH:
You know, that’s one of my neurodivergent gifts, as I say it like I see it. You know, bluntness is, is the natural state of things, the softening is something that I’ve learned to accommodate the neurotypical people.
HM:
I do appreciate that, because I think we do accommodate the neurotypical people a lot. And I think that’s really interesting, especially because we’re doing a segment as part of the show, you’re more than welcome to stay. If you don’t have time, then that’s okay, too. I know, it could be early, but we were going to talk about how employers can do better to accommodate and maximize the abilities of autistic workers. And I’m sitting here thinking, How are the autistic people accommodating the neurotypical workers and employers? Oh, my gosh, we’re doing so much extra work.
CH:
Yeah,
HM:
I just want to flip that script.
CH:
Yeah, yes, true. Well, well, I am flexible today. So that’s good news. But let me tell you about what what I’ve been explaining to workplaces, when, and this is something that is essential. In all of my trainings, there’s like 30 minutes of it, that no matter how long the training is, like, if they only do 30 minutes, they’re gonna at least get these specific lessons. And one of them is that for a long time, and historically, autistic and neurodivergent, people have been asked to do almost all of the stretching to flex into these systems that have been set up by neurotypical people, the neuro majority, right, the majority. And so we’ve been asked to flex because we’re the minority here. And so you know, we’ve been told you’re broken because you’re not doing well fitting into our neurotypical system. And what I’m asking now is for them to start doing some of the flexing as well and say, Okay, let’s each meet each other halfway and each do half of the flexing, you know, let’s ask them to flex a little more. And then we don’t have to flex nearly as so much, because unfortunately, with the neurodivergent people, some of us were flexing and stretching until we break. You know, when we break down and we have a burnout, and we have, you know, this crisis situation, like like I did, that led to be dying, me being diagnosed and finding out I was autistic when I was 20. I was I was at this crisis point, because I’ve been doing all the stretching because I thought if I just stretched a little bit harder, I could fit into the system and be what I thought people needed me to be. Which I wasn’t being myself, which was horrible, and soul crushing and, and destroying for many, many reasons.
HM:
I’m getting that: “be yourself, but not like that” vibes that neurotypicals… I feel like that’s especially true for a lot of people who interview unfortunately, as they’re looking for something super specific. And when you don’t meet that, it’s like, you feel like a failure.
CH:
Yeah, you know, what’s horrible is when I was in an organization and I was in the recruiting area, that organization, I before I found out I was autistic. And then when I found out I was autistic, like, oh, aha, I had noticed a pattern that if I hired people that I really related to loved and just felt like, Oh, I love this person, I jive with them, you know, this person is someone I can relate to. They were the ones that would be let go for not being a quote, culture fit or wouldn’t last or would be miserable in the organization. And then after I found out I was autistic, I found out Oh, it’s the neurodivergent people that I was jiving with. And they literally are the ones that will fail here. Because before I found that out, I had decided, Okay, don’t hire anyone like me. Because they’ll hate it here and then they’ll leave. And then it was like, Oh, I had basically decided don’t hire any autistic or neurodivergent people because it was like wow, and then that destroyed me and I had to leave like what I left the company like really soon after as well. There was another thing where I was like I asked for a very basic simple accommodation, like move my desk to a different space within the Open Office. And they said no, because I wasn’t ranked high enough to sit out of the walkway. So I left but but it was like you know just like these little micro aggressions then these things like even I like not knowing I was neurodivergent had realized like people like me are really welcome here and then like so that made me mask even harder. Because I knew so much what they weren’t looking forward, it was like someone not like me. So it really, like they’re all these subconscious subliminal messages like people like you need to know change or unacceptable or you know need to hide themselves because that’s not welcome here.
HM:
I’m just jiving with everything you’re saying. Taking a pause to reflect on that. Nothing wrong with that, even how we have that bias of against our own against our own like neuro-kin at times to, like, I just find that really fascinating.
CH:
Yeah, it’s what we’ve been taught. It’s sad, it’s really sad.
LB:
I mean, it’s just, it’s also very difficult, because, I mean, really, it’s very difficult for anybody to perform well, in this interview type of setting like, you know, just a short bit of time. Um, it’s very, there’s so many I having trouble finding words, but there’s just so many, so many variables. So many, it’s just such a short snapshot, like, I’ll give an example. I’m a small business owner. So I have hired lots of people over my course of my career. And what you see in an interview, and on a piece of paper is very different than somebody on the job. And again, I’m a small business owner, I don’t have an HR department, I don’t have all these like tools and strategies, but it’s just kind of going off of what I what the presentation is, and what their history is. And some people who I never thought would be a good fit, or the perfect fit. And some people who I thought would be perfect, were horrible fit. And you just don’t know until the whole team starts moving together and going together and the and the project start happening and things like that. So it’s just, I don’t know, I find I find hiring anybody, very a difficult proposition, especially, especially in a small business, where it’s, it’s like, everybody has to do everything, you know, as opposed to in a big corporation, where people have their like, kind of niches and their roles and things like that. But in a small business, if one person’s down, everybody has to do everything. So it’s difficult.
CH:
And it’s been my experience that that’s because we’ve been taught as companies to do hiring all wrong, you know, in my opinion, we, when we, when we look at hiring somebody, and the interview process, we take someone in for an interview, like I was trained in big companies and fast food to interview people. That’s how I know how to get through an interview. Because I can reverse engineer it, flip it, flip the script go, Oh, I know what they’re looking for. And so that’s something most autistic people don’t have. That was a benefit that I learned. I was like, 17. Right. But so but I was trained that it’s like, I was doing this information digging thing, but there are certain questions you can and you can’t ask, and you have to, you know, you’re hoping they start talking, because legally, you aren’t supposed to ask these questions. And it’s like you against them, almost like a cop, intimidating a witness kind of thing, right. And that’s the wrong attitude, this should be having a conversation. And if someone is a good fit, they’re a good fit, but you should want it to be mutually beneficial for the person. And for yourself, like not hiring them, if they’re not a good fit is would be not, it wouldn’t be compassionate to hire someone if they’re not going to be there, because they’re going to be miserable in your organization.
You know, you want something that’s good for both of you, it shouldn’t be you against them. And some of my best places I’ve ever worked have actually been places where like, one of my actually my most recent before, you know, full time on my own. I was working in one company and I was quietly looking to leave and I started doing some contract work on the side. And they saw what I could do and it was like started as 12 hours a week and then ended up being like, Oh, we want you full time. And so I went from 12 hours a week to marketing manager to VP of marketing you know so it’s like I started off just like as this like trial run just as like a you know, an eye. Anyway, the numbers. These are just like a contract or like a temporary contract or a project based working on one project. And it let us see how well we work together and look like you’re saying, if you go through an interview, the people you interview, it just shows how good they are interviews, right and it doesn’t necessarily show how good they are or their skills. in the workplace, and some people, unfortunately, believe it or not, are very manipulative, not necessarily. Someone I’ve interviewed people, there are people you will interview, and they will know exactly what you want to hear, tell you everything you want to hear. But then you get them into your office and they are horrible worker, horrible. They treat everyone bad. They just knew what all the right answers were to say in the interview.
And then you have you know, some people who don’t have that knowledge of like, oh, what are you really asking when you say, oh, how do you make a peanut butter jelly sandwich? Like an autistic person goes: Why do you want to know how I make a peanut butter jelly sandwich? Like, how is this relevant to this accounting job, I don’t understand. And like, look like, I put peanut butter on bread. And I put it together, like, you know, but they don’t understand, oh, this is a sneaky question. They really want to know, your thought process and how descriptive you can be, like how well you can describe the steps, they don’t say that, you know, it’s like, they’re trying to like make you pick up on these cues that aren’t there. And we need you to be a lot more direct often. So like if I would have gone into these interviews without having the training of like, what they’re actually looking for, like understanding that it’s kind of like a cat and mouse game, which is horrible. But you’re subjecting yourself to when you go into these interviews a lot of the times like, I knew how to get through that. But some of us don’t. You know, we think people are asking questions, and they’re they don’t have ulterior motives, like where they asked about one thing, but they’re really hoping to get you talking about something else. And then you’ll go and spill the beans, or they don’t know that, you know, because a lot of us, you know, we don’t understand that people might be asking things and not have our best intentions. Like, if they’re saying, Hey, what’s your expected salary? Like, you should probably actually not give that you know, to them. And it’s depending on where you are in the interview, because you don’t actually have to answer those kinds of questions like people don’t. Lots of new people or people who are new to entering the workforce may not know these things, like know their rights, or, or know some of these, like little, you know, just nuances that are in the process that you kind of uncover when you have more of that formal training or a little bit more experience and wisdom.
HM:
I’m still in shock over the whole peanut butter and jelly thing. Like I just never thought of a question like that…
CH:
It’s a real question.
HM:
I have never heard that. And I’ve never thought about that.
CH:
Yeah, well, we used to use that screening question at one of my previous employers. And so I was like, this is a real question we used and I was, it was a real question that was on my application for that, or in my interview for that company. And I knew what they were doing, because I knew what it was because I’d already had a recruiting background at that point. I was like, oh, here’s the peanut butter jelly question. Like it should have been a red flag. But you know, I didn’t know.
HM:
You knew the rules, you knew that they were literally trying to see how descriptive you are and how you were thinking.
CH:
Yeah, like I’m a good test taker. You know, like, when I was in elementary school, they taught me how to take the standardized test, right doesn’t mean I know the information and the time, I should be the 98 or 100 on the test, because you’ve taught me how to figure out how to take a test. Same thing with the interview.
LB:
But yeah, I mean, you know, and, unfortunately, in a small business, I’ll go back to that just for a second. Because in a small business…
HM:
I hope in a small business, you don’t ask peanut butter and jelly questions.
LB:
We don’t what well, we don’t have the opportunity, or the manpower, the ability to just hire somebody for a project. But I think that right now, I’m hiring, I’m hiring somebody. And it’s interesting, we’re talking about this because I was saying, like, let’s bring her in for a day, to shadow the person, she’s, she would be taking over their position to see how, you know, she works in the process. Like, that’s the kind of the best, the best way I can try to kind of mock up what Chris was saying about having a project, seeing how you get along with the staff, seeing how you work in the, in the, on the job training situation and how you know, you think on your feet, it’s, it seemed like a mock up of how the person would fit in. And it’s not again, it’s not just for me, it’s also for her, my my business. It’s a stressful work environment, and it’s not for everybody, and I don’t want somebody to come in and be miserable…
CH:
Or quit another job, you know, leave a secure job, and then come here and say, Oh, I hate this and then they leave their job, you know.
LB:
Exactly, exactly. I would I that would that would really disturb me. So, so we’re trying to kind of do what you’re what you’re saying. But that, to me, the best practice is like hiring somebody on temporary basis to do a project, see how they fit in. And if it works out long term, and then it works out. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t and it’s you know, that makes the most sense because this interviewing and seeing somebody for a short period of time and doing all these stupid questions and, and even looking at writing samples or whatever it is, it just doesn’t it just, it just doesn’t give you what you need to see if it’s a good fit for both candidate for the, for the organization and for the candidate.
CH:
And in retail like I’ve seen, like, for example, my partner is not a great interviewer, he doesn’t sell himself for a while, but he’s a fantastic hard worker, when unless dedicated embrace can any team I’ve been, I’ve worked with him in the past. So I know. And his his current employer loves him. But like at one of his jobs he worked in when it was like a retail furniture store a while back, like once upon a time many years ago, they came in and let him work there for like a week or something I don’t remember how long was that there was a trial period where he worked there, and they tried it out and see if they liked it before they made a final, you know, for like an extended period of time. So this can work in retail and other places, too. And it’s like, this is trial for everybody. You know, it’s not just for the company, it’s for the person too. And we have to frame these things a little bit differently. Because, you know, when I did this like trial with this project, because it’s like only two hours a week because I had a job. I knew I needed to leave, but I was stable and secure. And so leaving a stable secure job that I can do in my sleep, even if I’m miserable for a job that I don’t know if I’m even going to like if I would have had to quit and just switch and then what if I would have hated it in a week or two. Like that would have been so horrible. And so it was really beneficial to me to know like, yeah, I’m going to do this. try this out. See how it goes before I make any commitments on my end either. It was just so it was just a different way of doing things and it let me showcase you know what I do? Even though you know, I am someone who can kind of get through the interview. I guess they were even surprised because I think they they realize oh, you can actually probably do more than you said you can do. So I guess even I did show better than I interview and I think I’m pretty good at whatever you say.
HM:
You got this. I feel like I learned a lot today.
LB:
I always learned a lot and I this Yeah, I learned I learned a lot today. A lot. I learned the most is that Christa is starting a podcast on on Different Brains.
HM:
That was probably the most mind blowing thing to me other than the fact there is a peanut butter and jelly question.
CH:
That’s the peanut butter jelly question.
HM:
Please. Yeah, I would have probably done something like see I feel like people allow for Massa I’d be like, do we know if we’re making it for someone with allergies? What type of peanut butter? Are we using other preservatives in there? We got to make sure that our liabilities covered when we make this peanut butter and jelly sandwich like is that the answer they’re looking for? I would if I would die if they were trying to find out how I make a sandwich or like if I’m thinking about the liability of the sandwich.
LB:
Do they have to sign a waiver? Do I have to draft a waiver?
HM:
Is there an implied assumption of risk that you’re eating my peanut butter and jelly sandwich? So basically that there’s no like random body parts in it or anything really strange going on?
LB:
Oh my gosh, that is so funny.
HM:
This is my autistic brain. Yeah.
CH:
This is why you can’t give this question to an autistic person. Too many possibilities.
LB:
It’s very interesting.
HM:
My poor autistic brain found one nugget of knowledge in this conversation it is now hyper focused on
LB:
All day, all day. Peanut butter and jelly all day.
HM:
I’m gonna be thinking about like the dancing banana that was popular when I was in like Middle School.
CH:
Oh yes! It’s gonna be stuck in my head all day now. Oh, it’s already there.
HM:
Sorry. I feel like that’s like the goofiest note to end this on.
CH:
Dancing bananas.
HM:
Yeah, dancing bananas, workplace issues…
CH:
I’m doing the banana dance.
HM:
Hey, it’s a good stim dance.
CH:
You know it totally is and I’ve got my headphones on so I can dance while I talk.
HM:
So the most important knowledge other than that Krista has a podcast with JR Reed on its way is again that there is a virtual panel for free hosted by our friends at Different Brains, entitled “Autism on the Job: Navigating Neurodiversity in the Workplace” It is free. The episode description has registration and it is on Thursday, April 22 at 7pm Eastern Time. Check your timezone to see how that translates for you. And we’re really excited that our friend Christa Holmans is the moderator. You can find them at neurodivergentrebel.com on twitter @neurorebel they are absolutely incredible. And for the rest of us, be sure to check out differentbrains.org they’re on Twitter and Instagram @DiffBrains. And don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me, I can be found @Haleymossart on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And you can also find me at Haleymoss.net.
LB:
I can be found at CFIexperts.com. Please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes. And don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going.
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
