Loving Your Place On The Spectrum, with Jude Morrow | EDB 258
Irish autism self-advocate, author, and speaker Jude Morrow returns to discuss his new book “Loving Your Place On The Spectrum”.
(VIDEO – 31 minutes) Jude is an autistic best-selling author, entrepreneur, philanthropist and keynote speaker from Derry, Northern Ireland. He travels the world to showcase through his talks that autistic children can grow up to live happy and successful lives. Jude’s books are published by Beyond Words, publisher of The Secret. Jude is the founder of Neurodiversity Training International, the world’s premier autistic-led training and consultancy firm to global non-profits and Fortune 500 companies. He is also a 2 time TedX speaker and nurtures parents, teachers and professionals to develop a kinder mindset toward autistic people young and old. Jude is the author of the Amazon best-seller “Why Does Daddy Always Look So Sad?”, and the new book “Loving Your Place On The Spectrum”.
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HACKIE REITMAN (HR):
Hi, I’m Dr. Hackie Reitman. Welcome to another episode of Exploring Different Brains. And today coming to us all the way from Ireland, one of my heroes. He’s not just an autistic self advocate, he’s not only doing so much for so many. He’s the father of an autistic individual. He’s a great guy. He’s got a great beard, and I welcome Jude Morrow Jude, welcome back to Exploring Different Brains!
JUDE MORROW (JM):
Oh, thanks so much hockey. I, I know this has been in the in the can for about a month. And I’ve been looking forward to this that has been circled on the calendar. It has been I would love to turn the camera or show it. But it is there where I’ve been really looking forward to it and actually got a reminder from my publicist last night, that said, don’t forget to have a meeting with Hackie and Joseph tomorrow. And I said, I was never forgeting that ever. I was always gonna make this.
HR:
Your publicist figures your Irish, you might forget, you know.
JM:
But not for you, though not for you. I’ll not forget for the show. Definitely not because I’ve loved it the last couple of times have been on so obviously, I’ve jumped at the chance to come back.
HR:
Well, likewise, and you’re so inspirational to all of us, no matter what our walks of life are no matter what our neurodiversity or how our brains might be different. Because you are you and you’re doing it on all fronts. You’re a multi dimensional, you’re an author, you’re an entrepreneur, you’re a business guy, you’re a dad, you’re autistic, your parent of a neurodiverse. Individual. And, and I would never guess you were nonverbal at age three.
JM:
I know and now nobody can get me to sit down or shut up. Because I’m just back actually, from my speaking tour of the states it was, it was very rusty, it was like at the start, I was like, Oh, I’m so nervous about this. But had strayed quickly. It was a great success. And I loved it. And I love the way your point note that I’m being myself, because for so many years, I wasn’t myself. I wasn’t I had to be somebody else where, for me, whether it’s being on stage, or writing books, or doing conferences and stuff as that I’m not performing, I’m being myself, which is like, a reverse of the way it should be. Because people you know, in the public eye, he would often be somebody else. But now I get to be my real self. And it’s not it’s not as exhausting as being somebody else. 24 hours a day, seven days a week for 25 years.
HR:
Especially when you’re a wonderful person, such as you are. You know, I want to jump right into your books. Okay. And not only your “Why Does Daddy Always Look So Sad”, but I really think “Loving Your Place On The Spectrum” from Beyond Words Publishing. I want to talk about that because the title is so important to us. Not just if we’re on the spectrum, we’ve got to love ourselves. And if we don’t love ourselves, how can you expect someone else to love you? So “Loving Your Place On The Spectrum” speaks volumes because it’s your place? It’s individual. It’s like different brains. No two brains are alike. They’re like snowflakes. What led you to write that book?
JM:
Whenever “Why Does Daddy Always Look So Sad” came out I was just at stole humbled me today how quickly it just spread around the world. I couldn’t believe it, where it was really just a passion project for me, that people just happen to relate to. And whenever I started, like speaking at schools and events and stuff, a lot of people would ask me questions. And what I wanted to do was kind of volumize these questions and put them in book format, but get answer them from the artistic point of view, where the first book, I was kind of my point of view, my perspective and just my story. Were with “Loving Your Place On The Spectrum” I wanted to have more of a collective community filtered, where there is the most commonly asked questions about autism and autistic people but answered from the autistic viewpoint, that that’s what led me to write that and what I really enjoyed about the creative process of it was speaking to other people like me, like finding my tribe. I didn’t have that was the first book because it was my story, my life. And the only kind of consultation I took with that book was from my parents, who are the world leading experts on the life who tomorrow where I got to speak to other people that grew up in similar circumstances to me, and even vastly different ones, because there’s a lot of things that are grouped together to, I suppose, make the concept of autism and being autistic what it is. And there’s so many different variations, as you said, like, like snowflakes, like human brains, everybody’s experience is so different. And it doesn’t really matter. You know, where on the cognitive sphere that you lie, like, everybody has strengths and talents. And most importantly, feelings, I think, and it’s to kind of get across the overall message of “Loving Your Place On The Spectrum” is to demonstrate that no matter what people fail your ability, as you are good at something, and you can pursue your passions in a way that gives you the most fulfillment in life. And I wanted to kind of spread out everywhere as much as I could.
HR:
Very well said, and I’m so glad that you are and grateful. You know, it’s one thing for so called experts to write and talk and do research. And it’s another thing when it’s the self advocate, but then when you add the additional layers you have of parenting, as well as your neurodiversity-training.com, which is really giving tools, which I’m really into. That’s why I wrote the book “Aspertools”, which was just from my perspective, but here at different brains. You know, I’m so lucky to meet so many self advocates, and so many experts, and to come up with tools that can help. The surprising thing to me yet, when I stopped to think about it, perhaps it’s common sense is that what’s good for one individual autistic brain is good for all of our brains, all of these tools. And the things you know, so Well, such as exercise, a good diet, socialization, positive habits, they’re great for your body, but more importantly, great for your brain, whether it’s this kind of brain or that kind of brain, and we come in all sizes and flavors.
JM:
Yeah, exactly. And I think there’s, there’s a, there’s a, I don’t know if it’s a flaw or an unrealistic expectation is that in every field of human endeavor, people try to find the solution, the one size fits all, whether that’s, you know, the theory of matter, or whatever, and every science, every kind of mode of health and social care, people want the one answer, but with the kind of neurodiversity community that doesn’t really exist, where everybody is so varied, and so different. And I mean, as humans, we tend to compartmentalize people, which is a really awful trade, we’re the only species in the animal kingdom that does it. And it’s probably why we will probably have arrived last onto the planet, and probably leave first, kind of there’ll be so many other species that are much kinder to each other that will love way, way longer than us. And I suppose, if I’m trying to find a one size fits all solution for everybody, and my futile effort to try it, it’s the closest I’ve come to is trying to work with people to remove their unconscious negative bias. Because even for anybody listening to this generically, whenever you think of autism, if I say, what is the first thing you think of when you think of autism, you got all the usual stuff, you get all the usual, you know, non speaking, doesn’t like socialize, and doesn’t like communicating with people, and so on and so on. But it’s sad that that’s where people’s brains no matter how different they are, by and large, they go to a negative space, where I mean, my goal it’s taking on any stage or writing any book, or doing any interview like this is trying to help people remove that unconscious negative bias, because that’s ultimately as well as holding the community who proudly wield their different brains back where that that is the main challenge that we face. And I mean, that was another kind of sub inspiration of wire route love in your place in the spectrum because to show that we are a talented and gifted bunch of people, and that should be prioritized over what I suppose society feels we can do in comparison to her peers.
HR:
And of course, not just education, but employment is where the rubber meets the road.
JM:
Oh, yeah.
HR:
And you been a real activist in the field of employment? Tell us what the biggest challenge you find is for an autistic individual to find employment?
JM:
Well, on you’re quite right to start off the kind of answer to your question is that that is where the rubber meets the road whenever it comes to the lifespan of any human because I mean, as biology dictates, I don’t need to give a doc a biology lesson is that autistic people tend to be autistic adults way longer than their autistic kids, where that’s the first 18 years of life. And then after that, you’re a tax paying beard wielding adult. And the biggest challenge…
HR:
Which let me interrupt you to just say this too, to make your point. Double exclamation points. That is why when we started different brains, some years ago, we established the internship and mentorship to start at the age of 18. Because society with all the best intentions of the world, discriminates against adults, it’s all about the cute little kids, well, little kids grow into people with beards.
JM:
That’s what happens. And it’s such a globally neglected subsection of society, which is actually the largest people over 18. Like, I mean, what 80% of the world’s population are over 18. And, I mean, whenever it comes to us, only 16% of autistic people are in full time paid employment. And that’s drastically low. And the first point is recruitment processes, where you have to say a ton of buzzwords, and you need to tell people what they want to hear. And that can be very hard to decipher. Because I mean, for me, one thing that I’m not great at, is telling people what they want to hear playing the game, so to speak, you know, be in a but rear end cafe, I’m not very good at that, where I’m good at being able to demonstrate my kind of competencies, and the right situations, but interviews just aren’t the right situation for that, where they have a list of things that they want to hear, rather than the skill set that you say. And I mean, even if there was different methods and modes of recruitment, were like, let’s say, for an example, to put a conversation under the airwaves, you know, for inclusive recruitment practices, like what if people could prepare and make a presentation that demonstrates their skill set, where they can explain their own competencies and skills in a way that suits them instead of being an oppressive like interview stage, because interviews are scary. They even whenever I was a social worker, I never got promoted, where I was no good at the interview phase. Even though I was reasonably competent at the job, I’d accomplished quite a bit or had been working on it even five or six years up to a certain point, and wanted to try and take my career step up. But I was never really any good at interviews,
HR:
I’m starting to see it more as — one thing I’m emphasizing to our interns, is yes, the companies need to do X, Y, and Z. And we’re educating companies and individuals and society and the educational system and the employment system. But you are not absolved of all responsibility. Life is a two way street. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. You have responsibilities to do your best. And usually, as you know, if you try real hard, your best is usually good enough. But look at a guy like you, you’ve got responsibilities as running a company, as a father, as a husband, as so many things, and is a leader in neuro diversity in helping all of these things. So you’ve got to be positive. We’ve got to make it a level playing field, and we’ve got to do all these things. But you got to get up every morning. Put on your big boy pants and go out there and do it.
JM:
100% Because I mean, for me, I didn’t I didn’t wait for the big boy pants to be put on me, I had to put those on myself. Where and this goes for anything like neurodiversity or not is that if you’re waiting for the perfect moment, that perfect moment never comes you have to create it yourself. And if you’re waiting for all the I suppose the the pieces of the equation to fit together, that’s never going to happen. You need to take control and do that. Where it is. It’s it is a two way street, as you quite rightly point out where it’s because I would never advocate that. Oh neurodivergent people should just you know, do what they want and say what they want and ever Nobody should bow down like it’s a two way street, as you quite rightly say, where it’s all about, in some cases, compromise compassion, and meeting each other at each other’s level in order to get good progress together, where it’s not like a list of demands, so much, where it should be all about open dialogue and hope everybody can can work together, because everybody is so different. That there’s always there’s always a solution. And there’s always an alternative. And you’re whenever it comes to the workplaces as well, whenever it comes to interviews, unfortunately, it’s unavoidable sometimes. And there are some times we have to make an attempt to, I suppose sell yourself in a way that the interview processes setup. But there are ways that can be negotiated in order to try and turn the interview situation to one’s own advantage to portray their own skills in a more meaningful way, then, I suppose why why can’t that be alone? I suppose it should be.
HR:
What do you see as the biggest roadblock in autistic individuals loving their place on the spectrum?
JM:
Whenever you grew up, like us, false evidence appears real. And I’ll explain what I mean by that. is growing up, I was always told, Oh, Jude, can’t do this. Dude isn’t good at this. Dude won’t cope with this do this X, Y, and Z. And overtime. That was those were protective statements for people trying to protect me and do what was best for me with their hearts in the right place. Deep down, whenever I was getting into my late teens and early adulthood, that false evidence appeared rail because actually was good at socializing with people, I just socialized in my own way. And on my own terms, like every other human does, I mean, as far as communicating with people, I communicate with people in my own way, you know, I and that’s, that’s okay. Whereas whenever I was young, and for other people, people don’t feel that that’s okay. People feel like broken versions of everybody else, where there’s such a deficit based pool of information whenever it comes to, to autistic people. As an example. I’m not naive, either Hackie, I know that there are going to be autistic people out there who need more support, and guidance and help in life than what I do. But no matter what, they’re those people will have strengths and talents of their own. And there are people out there that I require more support than it’s all well and good know, whenever it’s public, facing like neurodiversity advocacy, being on interviews like this, that I can prepare for that I can put my best foot forward and chat. But whenever I was coming back from my tour, I had a flight delayed, and I must missed connecting flight. I would love if someone was there with me, because actually went on my own, I would love someone to have said, Oh, I wonder what his functional levels like no, because I did not deal with it very well, where I have to come home a day late. That was really, really hard. And I needed, I needed basically every single staff member at JFK Airport to console me and reassure me and help me where there would be other autistic people out there that would have managed that situation, probably wonderfully in their own way. But I just didn’t, where but even still, were having that bad experience, I was still able to draw on what I was good at, where I didn’t allow this situation to overcome me. Where I would have done if this happened five years ago, where this is the end of the world, this is catastrophe. But it’s being able to almost know subconsciously think, right? Well, I’m good at organizing and planning things. Let’s get to somewhere to stay for the night, let’s get another flight home. Let’s organize this. Let’s tell everyone that I’m going to be late. And we go forward. Where I think whenever people realize their gifts and strengths and talents, then progress is better. And that’s why I love myself now, because I know what I’m good at. And I know what I like. And I know what my skill set us. And most importantly, I’m not afraid to use them. Whereas before I would have been afraid to use them. So I suppose whenever I say unconscious negative bias toward autistic people, people have that for themselves. I have unconscious negative bias toward myself. But whenever that was lifted, and I made peace with it, and I was more public about it, and I doubled down on what I was good at, that’s when good things happened. And that’s what I’m saying good things happen for other people around me who were in a similar position or on a similar journey towards I’m currently still on.
HR:
That’s very well said. Tell us some of the individual stories of some of the people you spoke to in creating your latest book.
JM:
All there’s such a wide, wide array of people that I spoke. And there was a, there was there’s one that really sticks out on the on the theme of employment, there was another guy is autistic. Same as me, we’re roughly around the same age. And he had a private pilot’s license at every qualification that one could get when it comes to aerospace engineering, postgraduate degree, doctorate, everything you name it, but found it unbelievably difficult to get employment within the aerospace engineering field, because he wasn’t great at interviews, which, which was really, really sad. But whenever he realized what he was good at, and find that strength to be able to portray his skills, he eventually did find the employment that he deserved, because literally the highest level of qualifications one can achieve in that field. And it really shattered his confidence. We’re having all of these qualifications and degrees, and not being able to utilize them because of an oppressive interview system. But he didn’t let that interview system get them down. But he thought was, you know what, I’m going to try and overcome this and did so in style. And another really contrasting point between book one and book two, the narrator of the audiobook for the first one is a guy called Adrian, Newcastle, who I believe I don’t know if you may have met before, but I think may have introduced us a few years ago, and written my first book, he thought, Wow, this sounds very familiar. And he actually went through the autism diagnostic process, and was diagnosed himself. That’s Adrian, Newcastle, who has actually narrated love in your place in the spectrum as well as the audiobook whenever that comes out. So the first book has helped other people find their own identity as well, which I thought was really, really cool. And they would definitely be among my favorites. There’s so many other great contributors in there with JJ Morgridge. We have Evelyn Weldon, who’ve written about their stories of diagnoses, relationships, haven’t gone through therapies that didn’t benefit them, and, and so on, and so on, where we have a great collection. It’s a great eclectic mixture. So it’s not just the gospel, according to Jude Morrow, there’s, it’s like a community piece.
HR:
It’s great. Great, and how are you finding these days, from your point of view in Ireland and around the world? The gender ratios?
JM:
Well, of course, there’s still I had the luxury of being diagnosed pretty early in life, because I was a white middle class boy, and there’s still a huge inequality between you don’t males, and then other people who are not male, you know, is that stereotypically, the autistic people are man, that’s a lot of belief that exists out there publicly still, and they’re still unreal, like I campaign for very, very passionately, because mean, being autistic as an as an agenda thing. It’s that, you know, autism itself is genderless. And it’s an even spread among everyone. But it’s, it’s good to see that there’s some really passionate advocates out there who are advocating on behalf of autistic people here, not the stereotypical textbook male, which is what, which is wonderful to see. And I think more more progress still needs to be made. I think their diagnoses for anyone other than male are very hard to obtain. And believe it or not, there are still clinicians out there who will believe that only males can be autistic. And that’s, that’s really startling to me. But I think on the whole, there’s some great advocates out there for you’re steering the conversation in the right direction to highlight that more than just meals can be autistic. And I applaud it and support it with every thread of life in my body. And I think there’ll be more positive steps over the coming years, I can guarantee that.
HR:
Very well said who is your target audience and client in Neurodiversity Training International?
JM:
With NTI we do a lot of different things. Ultimately, what we do is we work with charities and nonprofits to grow their businesses, grow their models, get the right systems in place, and we’re even doing that with businesses as well. From a consultancy point of view, whether that’s design and their training, their coaching programs and everything else. I mean, I still do have my own kind of coaching arm as well, where I coach autistic young people who are going through transitions, whether that’s going through college, going through university, going and moving out on their own, and so on. So there’s still a big arm to that and a lot of the the corporate stuff we do around workplaces would be around kind of Creating a neurodiversity accepting and affirming culture within the organization, where autistic and neurodivergent people don’t have to experience unconscious negative bias toward them, and ultimately create better experiences in the workplace. We also roll out in schools, colleges, pretty much everywhere. And we’ve we’ve had the luxury in the last year of providing training and having contact with pretty much every continent in the world, which has been a truly wonderful experience. And really, what what we are is we’re just, we’re champions for neurodiversity. We’re champions for neurodiversity nonprofits, and businesses. And, you know, we’re getting really great results with the people that we’re working with. And I absolutely love doing it, because it kind of leans on a lot to my social work background and business background. So having the lived experiences, the nice little cherry on top of that. So I suppose, who’s our target audience and one sentence is, anybody who wants to learn more about them become more accepting and understanding toward autistic and neurodivergent people, which is pretty much everybody I know in business, you need to have like, an ideal nailed down customer avatar. But with us, it’s way more wide reaching than that, where it can incorporate pretty much any person who wants to learn more, go further do better for themselves, or other people whenever it comes to the autistic and neurodiversity spaces. And it’s also really important to kind of keep the aspect of the social and human rights movement that neurodiversity is. And by kind of incorporating that with a nonprofits, schools, colleges, businesses, is going to have better outcomes for the neurodivergent community on the ground. And I just I just love to another really brings a passion and spring in my step that I suppose that I really have through my social work days.
HR:
And a great tool that I know you use is explaining to the companies how this is going to improve their bottom line, this is going to improve their profitability, making more money.
JM:
Exactly. Because, I mean, having dedicated neurodivergent talent, you can see things in a different way who can plot different paths, you can take unique creative directions, like that’s an incredible asset to any any company, any project, any skill, any cause, or any society, where I mean, that’s why diversity is such a wonderful thing, whether it’s bio or eco diversity. Because you know, different different environments, different situations can breed different outcomes, some of which are way, way better. So kind of plug in that philosophy and idea and to the human population is a wonderful thing. But it’s very sad that, you know, companies like mine have to exist to do that for people that it’s not done naturally. And whenever it’s at the stage where it is done naturally, then I know that it’ll be time to exit stage left.
HR:
What is one piece of advice you would have for an autistic individual who is feeling a little bit down about things in general?
JM:
The first thing I would say is: you have gifts and talents, whether you realize it or not yet, were like me, you probably lived a life where you were told so many things that ultimately were false, but they appeared true to you, like, you can’t communicate properly, you won’t have a job, you won’t have successes in life, because you have X, Y and Z amount of deficits. And I just want to tell you know that that’s not true. Where you do have talents, you do have gifts. And I suppose after having had a lifetime of having to suppress these to please others, it’s time for you to take control, to make that conscious effort to showcase what you’re good at, to follow the passion that you have to follow that dream that you have. And whenever you live life on your own terms and take control, that’s when good things happen. Because nobody’s going to take control of your life on your behalf unless you allow them so I would just get out there and do what you want to do for yourself.
HR:
Is there anything that we have not covered that you would like to cover today?
JM:
Just one more thing for anybody that’s listening: I like to say that I have the most open door in the world where I’m very easily reached through our neurodiversity-training dot net site on all my social medias as well and just Jude Morrow on all social medias, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and I mean I love to chat I love to answer people’s questions and most impatient They engage with you and help out wherever I can. So I am easily found and you know what Hackie I really really enjoyed this I’ve been looking forward to it so much never disappoints whenever we have our chats so I’m really pleased to be here and grateful for it.
HR:
Jude Morrow, whose latest book is “Loving Your Place On The Spectrum”, thank you so much for being with us today. We hope you’ll come back again soon.
JM:
Absolutely. As I said just now my doors always open on anytime the answer is yes in advance.
