Neurodivergent Burnout, with Shawn Smith | EDB 332
Canadian ADHD & autism self-advocate and therapist Shawn Smith shares his experiences battling burnout, and offers tips on how ot overcome it.
Shawn Smith M.Ed., CCC, LCT is an autistic and ADHD Counsellor and psychotherapist, and the founder of Don’t dis-my-ability® Consultation Services Inc. Shawn helps parents, young people, and adults who are neurodivergent (ADHD/Autism/Dyslexic and more).
Prior to his own diagnoses, Shawn struggled at every level of the public education system. It took Shawn 4 years to complete 3 years of high school, 32 attempts to earn the 18 credits required to graduate including failing grade 10 math 4 times. Since then Shawn has experienced a tremendous amount of self-growth in a relatively short period of time and has a unique understanding of his thought process. In 2010, Shawn was accepted to the Master of Education in Counseling Psychology program at the University of New Brunswick on Academic Probation and graduated in 2011 at the top of his class. Shawn is a self-advocate, entrepreneur, innovator, counsellor and psychotherapist specializing in the emerging field of Neurodiversity. Shawn’s work is being recognized internationally and he has been sought after to consult in various industries ranging from non-profit to the world of animation.
For more about Shawn’s work, visit: http://www.ddmacs.ca/
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Note: the following transcription was automatically generated. Some imperfections may exist.
DR HACKIE REITMAN (HR):
Hello there. I’m Dr Hackie Reitman. Welcome to another episode of Exploring Different Brains, and today I’m excited to have coming to us all the way from Canada — there he is, our good friend, Shawn Smith, from up in Canada, who’s going to tell us all about neurodivergence. Hi, Shawn.
SHAWN SMITH (SS):
Hey Hackie, happy to be here. Good
HR:
to see you. Could you reintroduce yourself to our viewers?
SS:
Sure, I’m Shawn Smith. I’m the founder of don’t dis my ability. I am an autistic ADHD therapist specializing in helping uniquely gifted individuals who are often misunderstood. And so that’s my kind of cheeky way of saying, I work with other neurodivergent folks and their families and all. Like, I’ve been getting calls from all types of different people Hackie. So it just keeps changing. Like I get calls from judges, you know, doctors, lawyers. So as the movement progresses, more and more people are realizing that they’re on the spectrum or they’re neurodivergent, and are reaching out. So it’s it’s kind of fascinating that way.
HR:
And thank you for being a central figure in spreading the word and helping all these people now, since we last spoke back in 2021 which is hard to believe that was so long you who had a diagnosis of ADHD and other neurodivergens, since then, you’ve had a new diagnosis. It’s called Autism. Tell us how that came about.
SS:
Sure. And, you know, I’m an open book Hackie, so I really don’t mind sharing stories. It actually I had this epiphany. So I was having these meltdowns. And what was interesting to me as a, you know, a person, but also a therapist, was that recognizing that as a kid, I couldn’t do that, and we can get into that in a little bit, but, you know, all of a sudden, I’m having these meltdowns and realizing that as I’m having them, there’s usually a moment of clarity that comes. There is an epiphany. And so I was getting ready to a guest lecturer for University. I’d been up all night. I, you know, I have chronic pain with my back. I was dehydrated, just this perfect storm of things, and just had this realization, you know, why do I have such difficulty taking care of myself? Like it just seems like such a simple, basic thing, and then it just then the chips just started to kind of fall into place and realize, okay, I likely am on the spectrum, and, you know, for my own, you know, the real reason I did it was just for me to know personally, just to validate my, you know, what I was thinking, but also a part of who I am now too, right? So that’s, that’s kind of how it came about.
HR:
Yeah, want to talk about today something we all experience, but you’re a bit of an expert in, and it’s burnout. Tell us about it.
SS:
You know Hackie, I wish I wasn’t, to be honest. And you know, I think it’s interesting too, because I think you know what, what part is burnout. And you know, where does that pick up, and where does the autistic burnout kind of pick up, right? So for me, it was not having the right support in place to help me and asking for help, but feeling unheard, and just continuing to grind away with, like administrative stuff piling up, and it just, it got to be so overwhelming, and like, money was rolling in, it was great, but then there was just this whole other side that I couldn’t deal with. And it, it cost me. It cost me a lot. I ended up having to take a lot of time off work. I whittled down my clients so that it was basically just, you know, kind of a skeleton crew that I was seeing three or four people a week. And realized in hindsight, you know, if I’d just taken the time off and not seen those people, I probably would have been better off, but I think, you know, as an entrepreneur, I’m very fortunate that I had money in the bank and I could have just taken that time off for other people that that’s not really something that they can do. So I’m very fortunate that way, but some of the things that I did that really kind of helped me. You know, was seeing a doctor, going on antidepressants, I found this thing called hydration therapy, which is not new in the States, but it’s new to us here, which is basically like, you go to see a doctor and you get an IV, and there’s different things that you can get in that IV that your body needs. And so doing that regularly, really kind of leaning into my hobbies and interests. You know, I had the account ADHD chef. I’ve now changed it to neurodivergent chef, and just kind of like dug in on certain things that I was interested in. If we ever get to see each other again, I would happily make you a like, a restaurant, quality style, Neapolitan pizza, because that’s the level I’m at now, and just trying to spend more time, like, more quality time with my kids and my wife, but also like reaching out to friends, and because I think a lot of us feel like we’re kind of like in isolation, like a lot of us have friends, but we may not have, like, a close group of friends that we go for a beer with every week. So just being mindful of, you know, it’s not realistic for me to expect people to reach out to me and know what I’m going through if I haven’t informed them first. So really looking at, you know, who are the people that I feel comfortable reaching out to, that I can spend time with and do things with, and kind of leaning into all that. But the one of the biggest things is time. It just, it takes time.
HR:
Well, you’re, you’re such a busy fellow in so many different interests. At the time you were cutting back. How did you do it? I mean, you said you did it, you said it was with difficulty, but for somebody who’s doing a million different things and comes to the realization: I have to cut back or I’m in trouble, what advice do you give them?
SS:
Well, for me, it was kind of a natural progression just because I’m a therapist and people will, you know, I might see someone for one session, I might see them for three years, right? So it was just kind of a natural progression of people ending our sessions together, and me not taking anyone else on. And I had a list, and, you know, one of the tips and tricks that I had. I actually had it typed out for anybody who would inquire about counseling service, like I had an email. Currently burn out at the moment, but we’ll be taking on clients when I when I feel like I’m in in recovery. And I said, Please, you know I appreciate your patience. If you’re interested in being added to my wait list, please let me know, and I’d be happy to do that. That’s what I did.
You’re very open about, yeah.
SS:
Well, my thing Hackie is that like as a therapist, to expect someone to come and unload and share everything with me, but not share that side of myself just doesn’t seem genuine, authentic, right? So I just, I wear my heart on my sleeve. I you know, if somebody wants to judge me for that, then I believe that actually says more about them than it does me.
HR:
What about a lay person who’s not a psychologist, who’s not a therapist? Do you recommend they do the same thing?
SS:
Yeah I don’t think it’s really any different. The only, the only challenge I think a lot of people go through is that they don’t have the flexibility that I did where I’m an entrepreneur. So if you work for a company, you know there’s more of a process that has to get involved. You’ve got to get a letter from your doctor. You need to go through human resources. There’s a lot of steps that the layperson would have, extra steps the layperson would have to go through, which I think would maybe make it more overwhelming or daunting to go through the process.
HR:
Well what I’m thinking about, because I’m self identifying, too, with somebody like, say, myself, who’s very busy and is on this committee and that Boys and Girls Club, and that not for profit and the CEO of your company, and not for profits, and mentoring individuals, so on and so forth. The same thing would apply. You just make the list and go through it?
SS:
I think the biggest thing is trying. I think the part that messes people up is that they get so overwhelmed that trying the simplest of things seems daunting and overwhelming, right? So I think the list, I think the bones of it are there, but I think it’s it can be different for different people, but I think it’s the act of trying something, right? If you try something, eventually something will stick. If you try nothing, there’s nothing to stay.
HR:
That’s good advice for anything in life, isn’t it? That’s good. It’s a good philosophy. What age groups are you finding you’re seeing the most of?
SS:
I’m getting a lot more professionals and university students, still working with families a little bit. But I would say those are kind of the two larger demographics that I’m working with right now.
HR:
And the more successful the professional, the more likely they are to be experiencing this in your experience?
SS:
Not necessarily i think that i. And again, you know, I’m I live in Canada, right? So the whole concept of neurodiversity is relatively new here, like it. The government has only just started using the term within the last six months or year, right? So that’s how far behind we are. So we still have this deficit based mindset when it comes to disability, and so part of the challenge for me is helping people to understand that they’re not damaged or broken, that they are whole. It’s a system where there have been people in their lives who’ve made them feel that way, but they’re not.
HR:
Interesting. Now you’ve had your hand in a new book that was recently published. Can you tell us about it?
SS:
Sure it was. It was pretty exciting project, Hackie for me, because, like, you just you know, you never know how things are going to pan out. Right? And I was in an accelerator for social entrepreneurs when I first started my business quite a while ago, and there were eight businesses, and there were was myself in another business where we were it was just us. Everybody else had a team. And so he the he and I worked very closely together. His name is Paul McAllister, and he owns Monster House Publications. And so I was supporting this, this young man and his mom. And, you know, one of the questions I had my intake form is, do you have any unique gifts or passions? And mom said that he really liked to draw and he liked to write my and I, again, I always try to think low risk, maximum reward, you know. So I send me a stuff. And I asked, you know, would you mind if I send this off to my my friend or my owns a publishing company? No, no problem. Didn’t think anything of it. I sent it to my friend, and he said, Shawn, I want to publish this young man’s book. And so it took about three and a half, four years from, you know, start to finish. But here we have a young man who, you know, struggled in school, struggled and you know every aspect of life, and now can call himself a published author, and that’s the name of the book. It’s called Trucks. I’ll send you the link so that you can add it for the viewers.
HR:
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, what’s better than that to have such a positive effect on someone who then is going to have a positive effect on others. Really good stuff. How can our audience learn more about you
SS:
My website or reach out to me? I’ve kind of stopped posting on social media whole lot. Hackie, like, I used to be really diligent about it, and so I guess the way I put it was, when I was broke, I had to find ways to kind of get myself out there. But now that I’m more financially secure, and because I’ve experienced burnout, I just I don’t have capacity to do that stuff anymore, but it’s also challenging, because I haven’t found anybody who can market me as well as I can. So it’s kind of this double edged sword. But I would say, you know, the website or reach out to me, I kind of hold space to have conversations with people around the world, like I set aside an hour or two a week, and if someone happens to reach out to me, then I’ll, you know, say, Hey, no problem, plug them in here and have a conversation with them. And it’s been pretty interesting.
HR:
Let’s recite for our audience your website and your email.
SS:
Sure. So my website is www.ddmacs.ca, so that’s ddmacs.ca, and my email is Shawn, S, H, A, W, N, at ddmacs.ca.
HR:
okay, great, great. Is there one thing you’ve learned about yourself through getting a diagnosis?
SS:
Yeah. And I think, you know, I touched on this and said, we circle back to it, but I think the childhood trauma of I think when people think of trauma, they typically think of like one large event. But it isn’t necessarily that way for a lot of us, is kind of the death of 1000 cuts. You know, if you grew up in the, you know, anytime before, probably 2010 toxic masculinity was rampant. It’s still rampant, right? So, you know, looking back on my childhood and you know, the disassociating that I did right? It was my way of retreating. It was kind of like we didn’t we weren’t allowed to cry, like if you were a boy or a man, you know, I’m sure, you know, the things that I’ll say, Hackie, you heard boys don’t cry. Sissies cry. Or I’ll give you something to cry about. Or, you know, real men don’t cry, or crying is weak. You know, all of this, you know, part of my bullshit that that we were fed and believed, and so we carried that with us. And so I realize, or recognize, now, the reason why I didn’t have those meltdowns is because I didn’t, I didn’t have permission to do that, and so I held it all in. So you can imagine all the stuff that’s like pent up in here, from from having to hold all that in for all those many years, and so being able to have those meltdowns now and just have everything come out is is pretty spectacular. I mean, I wouldn’t wish them on anyone. But also, I think that there aren’t enough people who just are okay with crying. I think people try to fight it and hold it back, and we don’t need to. I mean, I tell people you wouldn’t hold back a laugh or smile. Why would you do that with your other emotions? They’re meant to be there, so why not feel them?
HR:
Well, it’s very interesting that point of view, and we need an outlet for such things. In my own life, my outlet was professional heavyweight boxing, where I could get it all out, the training and the fights and overcome my one of my big hang ups, which was fear. And I experienced fear before every single fight, but then I had to overcome it to get in the ring and perform, not directly analogous, but your principle is very well received and very admirable, I might say too.
HR:
You have children who are also neurodivergent. Can you tell us about that experience?
SS:
Yeah. So you know, it’s one of these things Hackie, where I always tell parents The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, because a lot of parents will come to me with their kids, assessment, diagnosis, right? And so then I, you know, I kind of scratch my head. I wonder if they’ve had any aha moments than they usually have. And so it wasn’t really any that different from me, right? Like seeing my kids in certain ways, and so having them assessed and them both being neurodivergent, but also both being extremely different. My son is 16 and has ADHD combined, type brilliant, like just the fact that he doesn’t struggle the way that I did. Hackie brings me immense joy. Didn’t bring a book home all last year, finished with a 93% at one point he had 100% three of his classes, you know, like, it’s just amazing how different things can be, right? And then we have my daughter, who is essentially a mini me, autistic, ADHD. And, you know, the things that I see her go through are very much the things that I went through. Difference being just two parents who are very knowledgeable, intuitive, empathic, you know, and we don’t live in an age where we feel, you know, like we have to hide those things or be shameful of them. So she has a lot of love and support, and it’s, yeah, it’s just kind of fascinating, right, to see how they are and the things that they go through, especially as someone who’s not not only neurodivergent, but as a therapist who works with families and does a lot around parenting, and I can see the impact of the things my wife and I have done that have helped my kids out.
HR:
How do you think that those autism traits went undetected for so long?
SS:
Ah, well, again, living in a different place, I’m not the face of autism. I think that when people you know and again, different here than in Florida, where you are here, there’s still very much a deficit based mindset. Disability is still synonymous with less than and the reason why I don’t I don’t want to say. I don’t play nice, but I I’ve been shunned by every disability related organization the province. They all follow me on social media, but none of them will ever share any of the work that I do. I make them look bad, and I’m okay with that. So I think part of it is that you know me not being the face. So then what is the face? The face to them is someone who looks autistic, whatever that may look like. You know, they envision someone with higher needs, because that’s that’s going to pull on the heartstrings, right? They don’t really want to hear about a successful autistic person story that’s, that’s just the, you know, it’s not how they get funding. You know, it’s, it’s just a weird kind of place that I’m in where being autistic and having to say that I’m autistic, because otherwise people won’t know, and trying to inform and educate them, but also living in the place where I’m at, you can see somebody’s interaction in their face, right? They’re either going to get it or they’re not, and if they’re not, you learn something about that dynamic of that conversation, of that relationship, that you know you’re not going to look at them the same way because they’ve judged you based on information that you felt vulnerable enough to share with them. So it is kind of a an interesting conundrum. So I guess my my role, as I see it, is just trying to be awesome, and anybody who wants to come along for the ride, can anybody who doesn’t, that’s fine, you’re going to be outdated and not a touch. But you know…
HR:
Shawn, looking back at your childhood, did you see things that would have told you you have autism
SS:
in in hindsight, yeah, I mean tags and clothes, you know, putting on certain clothes but not feeling comfortable in them, that was big one sounds always being heightened, definitely a lot, but also something that I’ve learned about myself is rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is just another layer on top of that. And, you know, if people don’t know what that is, I’m happy to explain it. I’ll explain the same way I explained it to my doctor when I went to see him, and I and I introduced the concept to him. And the way I explained it to him was, you know, if you were to text somebody and they didn’t respond right away, what would be your thought process? And he said, Well, I put my phone back in my pocket and I’d walk away and not really think anything of it. I said, Okay, that’s the difference. I would replay the last interaction I had with that person and wonder if there’s something that maybe I said or did that would have offended them, that caused them not to respond right away. And that’s the process for each type of rejection we go through is our immediate thought is, what is it that we did that may have done something to harm the relationship and prevent that person responding right away?
HR:
What is the term that you used?
SS:
Rejection sensitivity dysphoria.
HR:
Rejection sensitivity dysphoria.
SS:
Right and so our mind will kind of skip off and create an alternative reality based on just what wherever our mind takes us, and it’s usually not positive.
HR:
Shawn, if you would, I’d like you to take us back in time, back when you were back in elementary and grammar school, and you were first recognizing that you were different. How did people respond and how did you respond?
SS:
It was tricky, because, again, like, I’m, you know, I was a kid. I don’t know any better, right? I don’t know that there’s anything out there other than just being me. And so, you know, the constant, you know, prompts eventually turn into negative, right? And this is something I’m, I’m aware of with my own kids, right? And that’s not their fault. It wasn’t my fault. And so the constant, right of stay on task, Do this, do that, but also it was part of the era to Hackie, where people were more concerned about what the neighbors thought than they were about what was happening in their own home and so, and I’m pretty sure I’ve said this before, you know, like my parents didn’t have me assess, not for the reasons I’d like to think back then, special education was like Hotel California. You could check in anytime you like, but you could never leave, right? And so my parents fought to keep me at a special education because they didn’t want to be judged. Having a child with a disability at that time was perceived as a reflection of poor parenting. What must you have done to end up with a child? Like that. So the way that I kind of was able to put it into words later was that I felt like I was wrongly imprisoned in my own mind. Is the best way that I can put it. And I would also say that with all of that baggage that came, there wasn’t a day that I didn’t think about what it would be like to not be on the planet.
HR:
You know and that’s what people forget. It’s a different time. We go through different eras and civilization, and you can take that in any field or any sport or anything. It was a different time, and things are different now, certain things are still the same, but certain things change, and sometimes that can be good and sometimes it can be not so good. In the field of neuro divergence, I think it’s been good because we’re now more cognizant of it and more accepting, and so on and so forth. But even that word accepting means, oh, something wrong with you, I’m accepting you, even though, and that’s not what’s intended.
SS:
No. But, you know, I always say, Hackie, like inclusion isn’t a thing that you do, it’s a way of being, right. If it’s a thing that you you’re doing like it shouldn’t require effort.
HR:
Well. Shawn Smith, up there in Canada, it’s been such a pleasure to have you here at different brains. I’ve certainly learned a lot, and I look forward to talking to you in the future as well. And keep up your good work in neurodivergence, ADHD autism and the whole rest of The lot. Thank you so much.
SS:
Thank you, Hackie. You
