Self-Acceptance for Autistic Women, with Zhara Astra | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 160

Spectrumly Speaking is also available on: Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | SoundCloud

 

IN THIS EPISODE:

In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts speak with self-advocate, film / television writer and producer, and professor at Arizona State University Zhara Astra.

Zhara Astra is a film and television writer, producer, as well as a professor where she developed the first university course in the world on understanding neurodivergent women at Arizona State University.

After discovering in adulthood that she was on the spectrum, Zhara set out on a mission to change the way women are viewed, treated, and diagnosed in the medical world (and how they’re depicted in film and tv) while also aiming to help women and girls better understand their own brains.

She is an international public speaker and has written articles about this for Scientific American Magazine as well as other publications, that have helped change the game for women worldwide.

For more about Zhara’s work: https://zharaastra.com/  

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Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.

For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com

Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com

 

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:  

Note: the following transcription was automatically generated. Some imperfections may exist.

 

HALEY MOSS (HM):  

Hello and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Haley Moss an author, artist, attorney and advocate who also happens to be autistic. And as usual, I get to share the spectrumly stage with a wonderful co host…

DR LORI BUTTS (LB):  

Hi, I’m Lori Butts. I’m an attorney and a psychologist.

HM:  

How you doing?

LB:  

I’m good, how are you?

HM:  

I think we’re in that weird swing of back to school. And it’s so strange because I get to see students moving in and out, and see a bunch of young people abuzz, and I’m just like, what, where did the time go? And how is it already that time of year?

LB:  

Yes, it’s very strange to already be that time of year. I agree with you.

HM:  

I see the young people and the college kids, and I’m just like, when did I get so old?

LB:  

It just happens. It just happens.

HM:  

It’s something I just haven’t gotten used to yet.

LB:  

Yeah, well, you never will. You just accept it.

HM:  

I think that’s what I’m expecting. But I think being around young people and students also helps keep me young, and at least I know it’s cool, so I can say that I actually know what it means to have a brat summer.

LB:  

Exactly, exactly.

HM:  

It’s good for my soul.

LB:  

Yes, yes, yes. It’s also, I mean, when you go to school for a long time that and, and you live in South Florida, you we don’t have seasons, so you get used to like your time is marked by summer vacation or Christmas break. And once you become a professional and adult, it all kind of merges together too. So there’s that thing where time is very strained once you’re out of school as well

HM:  

You start judging by which holiday decor shows up in the stores which somehow, despite the fact it’s August, means it’s already Halloween, then it will be Christmas in about a month, maybe less.

LB:  

Less probably.

HM:  

I do know that Mariah Carey thaws out on approximately November 1, and then we’re gonna be hearing All I Want For Christmas Is You for the next, like, six weeks after that, like, you know, just somehow keep her frozen on the shelf for a good part of the year, and then the six weeks of November 1, all the way to New Year’s, she is back, and we’re hearing all i want for Christmas is you. And that is a mark of time. I don’t make the rules.

LB:  

Exactly.

HM:  

I’m glad that I can make you laugh about the silly things in my brain. But speaking of back to school and universities and whatnot, we have a fantastic guest who happens to be a professor. I’m very excited. So excited. I know you’re excited too. So today we are welcoming Zhara Astra. And Zhara is a film and television writer and producer, as well as a professor at Arizona State University, where she developed the first university course in the world on understanding neurodivergent women. After discovering in adulthood that she was on the spectrum, Zhara set out on a mission to change the way women are viewed, treated and diagnosed in the medical world, and how they’re depicted in film and TV, while also aiming to help women and girls better understand their own brains. Welcome to the show.

ZHARA ASTRA (ZA):  

Hi. Thank you for having me.

HM:  

Thank you so much for being here. I met you not too long ago. It feels like or maybe it wasn’t longer ago than I want. Than I want to believe, at a conference in New York City, and absolutely enjoyed hanging out with and talking to you. So to help our audience get acquainted with you, can you share with them about your journey to receiving an autism diagnosis?

ZA:  

Well, like many later diagnosed autistic women, it came out of my son’s diagnosis. So my oldest son was five years old, he got an autism diagnosis, and I remember seeing a lot of similar traits and being like, Yeah, but I do that, and I do that and I do that. And then someone looked at me and said, Well, I think you might also be on the spectrum. And I was just so I was shocked, and I didn’t believe it. And so I went through this whole journey of self discovery. I got a brain scan done by a really well known neuropsychologist, and then I got a diagnosis. And you know, through all of that, it’s interesting because, as is common with women, I still didn’t believe it. You know, we go through a bit of the imposter syndrome, when we spend our entire lives thinking that we’re one way and then discovering why and how we we actually are.

LB:  

Wow, that. A fascinating story. Um, just a little was the, how long ago was the brain scan? And what I’m very interested in that.

ZA:  

The brain scan was, gosh, I don’t know. Maybe, like, four or five, four years ago, maybe.

LB:  

Do you know about it? Like, what, what, what they did and what they…?

ZA:  

I came into the brain scan and and I told this neuropsychologist that I thought I might be on the spectrum. And her initial response was, No, I don’t think you are, because you don’t, you don’t look autistic. And I was like, dear Lord, here we go. And then afterwards, she called me, and I remember she calls me up, and she’s, I can hear an ambulance in the background. She’s outside of a hospital, and she says, Zara, look, I just broke my foot. I’m on my way in, but I got your results right before that happened. And I was so excited, I just had to call and tell you that I think that you actually are on the spectrum and and I said, Okay, go and go into the hospital and take care of yourself, but thank you for letting me know. And basically, what she said she saw was that there was a lot of like, gray and white matter in the frontal lobes that was congruent with what they think an autistic brain might look like. But there is a lot of controversy, because when I made my documentary on autism, I got a brain scan done at MIT, and the experts there said that they didn’t think that we were able to detect autism on a brain scan. So, you know, like everything in this whole world of of neuroscience, there is a lot of conflicting information and a lot we still have to learn.

LB:  

Well, that’s a great segue to telling us about your film and television work and how you got involved in it.

ZA:  

I was working in development with stone village television Scott Steindorff, who is well known autistic producer in Hollywood and before I even got diagnosed, he had told me about this documentary that he wanted to do on autism. And I was like, okay, cool. I’ll work on this film. And then eventually, when I got diagnosed, it, it, it was just funny, because now I’m, I’m working in in teaching and educating about autism and women, and then we got the go ahead to do the film that kind of set off our my career working with him. So it kind of happened in a really funny roundabout way. I also have ADHD, so I get distracted halfway through a question and forget what I’m what question I’m answering? 

HM:  

Oh, no worries. We were talking about your film and television work, and you were talking about the documentary. Would you mind sharing a little bit more about your documentary? 

ZA:  

Certainly. So I produced a film called Understanding Autism with Scott and the Stone Village team, and we basically went around the world and we interviewed all of the top doctors, scientists, neuropsychologists, researchers and as well as autistic families. And we made this this film, and it is on PBS right now, and I think it’s going to go to Hulu or something within the upcoming months, but it was, I mean, it was interesting, because Scott and I both learned a lot about ourselves and as well as autism as a whole, and at the end of it, we came to the conclusion that there’s just so much that we don’t know and that we have to unlearn and learn again in this field.

HM:  

I feel like that learning and unlearning is such an integral part of the self discovery and also understanding of autism. So every time that I spend time with more autistic people, I find myself having to relearn everything I thought I knew, because it’s not true to my experience, or is true to my experience, and seeing it in another person makes me go, wait what?

ZA:  

Absolutely I mean. Look, my first encounter with autism was I have a younger cousin who was diagnosed in the 90s at three years old, and I helped to take care of him, and I would babysit him and and he is um, non speaking, you know that? So it’s like that. That is what I thought autism was. It’s a young white boy, and he’s nonverbal, and, you know, he gets fixated on on like a string on the end of his finger and things like that. And that’s what I thought autism was. So you can imagine my surprise when 30 years later, I get a diagnosis for me and my son, who are both completely different so and I think that’s kind of a testament to the dangers of stereotypes and why it is so important to have podcasts like this and have films like mine, where we give a greater depiction. Of the spectrum as a whole.

HM:  

Oh, for sure. And another big part of that is how we educate others. And I know that’s a big thing that you’re doing with your film and television work, but also you developed the course at Arizona State, and can you tell us a little bit about that as well?

ZA:  

Yeah, I so after I got my diagnosis, I got really angry, to be honest, because why am I just discovering that I’m on on the spectrum in my 30s? Why? How is it that my son and my cousin and all of these people are able to get an early diagnosis, but so many women like me aren’t? So I wrote an article for Scientific American magazine that got picked up, and that kind of blew up, that just kind of blew up worldwide, and suddenly I’m getting asked to come and speak. I spoke in Rio. I’m speaking at conferences across the world. I spoke at Stanford and different universities in Arizona State University was one of the first, and I came out, and I did a guest lecture, and it ended up being a packed house, and at the end of it, they said, This is so important. And all of our psychologists and our counseling department, I think that this could be really helpful for the the young adults that want to come into this career field and have a better understanding, perhaps, of what autism looks like in females, how to detect it, how to diagnose it, how to how to effectively deal with and treat people, people like me. And so they were so wonderful. They gave me the free rein just to develop this course and and it just kind of kind of took off from there. And it was also the first, you know, so it’s the first university course in the world, specifically on female neurodivergent brains, with an emphasis on the the female autism phenotype, that also happens to be taught by an actual autistic person. So I think it’s just really special in that regard, because it’s authentic. You know, so much of what we know about autism is based on the observable traits that doctors see in us and what they tell us it is. So hearing about it from our perspective, I think is that much more powerful and informative.

LB:  

Yeah, yeah. 100% what do you think that are the changes that are necessary in order to improve the diagnosis of young girls so that, so that the diagnosis can happen earlier?

ZA:  

Well, when we look at the DSM, we’re looking at an antiquated view of of autism, right? And it’s based on a lot of studies that were done on the specific, you know, subject group of young white males, right? I think that that just the whole diagnosis process has really failed a lot of us. It’s because what are we looking at? We get a subject group, and we have this one subject group, and typically with that, it is males, so So the female experience is left out, right? So I think it needs to start with including more diverse range of people in the research, and then, you know, it really it starts with that, and then compiling some of the the traits and our own experiences and figuring out a broader way to view autism and women. I also think that we need I’m a huge advocate for our own subgroup, our own subtype, and I know there’s some controversy there, because a lot of people believe that, okay, we’re all on the spectrum. That’s the same thing. We should all be called ASD. I strongly disagree with that. I think that if there was a specific subtype for, you know, some of the more like Asperger female, you know, I don’t like saying higher function, but you know, less, I don’t even know how to say it. I think if there was a subtype for women and girls specifically, then a lot more of us would get diagnosed.

LB:  

What would that look like? What do you think that would look like? What? What would be the criteria? Like, what? What would we be looking for that we’re not looking that we don’t see now? 

ZA:  

So in order to get a more accurate diagnosis for girls and females, I think that we have to get inside of their internal worlds, because, as I mentioned, we’re diagnosing autism as early as two and three years old, and we’re doing it based on observable traits. So we see a boy and he might not make eye contact, he might be more hyperactive, he might do more stemming and and things like that. But with females, a lot of it is internalized, right? So maybe we’re the daydreamers and we just have this whole active world within our brains. And these traits aren’t necessarily as observable. We also have a lot of us who are masters of masking. Okay, I’m from Texas. I’m from I’m from the south, and from a very early age, we are conditioned to eye contact, firm handshake, you know, to kind of we’re, I mean, we’re, we’re trained to mask from a young age. So I think getting inside of our worlds and asking more questions. I mean, I think that’s crucial to understanding what it looks like in us.

LB:  

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. 

ZA:  

Yeah. And there I have some little theories and things. I have a horse girl theory. From my observations and people that I’ve interviewed, there’s this whole group of girls that are obsessed with horses, right? And this is horse so you have these whole group of girls, a lot of them autistic, who are obsessed with horses. They relate to the horses. They want to be around horses. They want to be outside with them. They’ve got horse posters on their walls. I see the same with cat girls, and they’re wearing cat ears, and they’re obsessed with cats, and they want to be a cat and and what I recognize in this are girls who relate more to to this animal than they do people. It’s easier to have a relationship as well with an animal, with a cat or with a horse, because there’s less social expectations, right? There’s no none of the social nuance and the confusion of friendships and girls and what do people mean? And, you know, there’s none of that. So, so, you know, I have a theory about that, where we see us connecting more to animals, because they make more sense and they’re easier.

LB:  

I like that theory.

HM:  

I feel that on a fundamental level as a former horse girl, I have lots of feelings as to why I was a horse girl. I enjoyed the sensory of riding horses. I don’t know if I did have the toy horses. I liked acting out with horses and all that stuff as a kid, but I don’t think I was the posters on the walls, and I didn’t take it all the way, the way that other horse girls did, but I think this does check out, because I’ve seen neurodivergent girls and women particularly, and I feel like it’s become almost like a meme of like, oh, we want to hang out with a dog at the party, and not the people, yeah. And I like, that is the neurodivergent experience summed up is that we understand the dog hiding in the corner at the party more than the people at the party. Yeah, absolutely. So much sense. And I love that we all have our own different beliefs. So my my personal one in the same vein, is so many of the neurodivergent kids end up in theater, because I think so many of us are masters of mass thing anyway, but we get to truly be somebody else that’s unrelated to our survival.

ZA:  

Okay, testament to that, I was a theater kid.

HM:  

Me too! Oh my gosh. Think of the ones up in theater. They have all these very creative people. You have people who are outside the boxes of what society considers normal that they’re usually people who are outcast in some way, shape or form, usually due to identity. And I find it so fascinating. So I have my very deep theater kid lore theory that I don’t think I have a platform to really go off on, but I think it’s kind of similar to your horse girl theory.

ZA:  

Absolutely. We see it a lot in alternative groups as well, because oftentimes, as as an autistic person, we kind of feel like outsiders, especially when we’re young girls, teenagers, pre teens, and we’re not diagnosed, and we know that we’re different, and we don’t know why. So from my observation, a lot of us end up in these ulterior friend groups, whether it’s the golf goth or punk or something, because those groups tend to be more outsiders, and they tend to be more accepting than in the mainstream groups. 

HM:  

Oh, for sure. And when you think about mainstream culture so often, of how many rules and regulations and customs and traditions and unwritten rules and things that there are, I find it really fascinating. So one of my favorite, I guess, trends to follow, especially having like you spent a lot of time in the south, is sorority rush. I was not in a sorority. I had no desire to be in a sorority at that age. And it’s so fascinating to me because this, like cultural study of how that every single one of these girls primarily, is trying to fit in, and somehow they all just seem to know from each other or some other cosmic being what is cool in the moment. And you can see same weird desire or longing, desire amongst neurotypical women, for the most part, to just want to feel that they belong somewhere, and they don’t really, I don’t know if it’s really them or their style, or anything like that, and it makes me have so many questions. On an existential level, I personally enjoy following it for the fashion, because I like knowing what’s trending, what’s coming up, what’s cool, what’s this, what are the cool girls wearing the summer? And then I’m just like, every single one of you just wants to. Feel like you have someone that you belong as you take this adult step into moving away from home, yeah, fundamentally sad and fascinating about it all at the same time.

ZA:  

I mean, that’s really interesting. I had zero desire to ever be in a sorority. I don’t even think that I wanted, like we all want to find where we belong, but I never wanted to belong in those in those kind of groups. I also think that if I were diagnosed younger, I would have gotten what my son was diagnosed with, which is Oppositional Defiant Disorder, right? There’s there’s a lot of us, and we’re so defiant by by nature, that being in a group like that with rules just never would have worked for me or being like other people. I just, I couldn’t even fake it. If I tried.

HM:  

I think I would have been fine with the rules. It’s the be the same as everybody else, and you have to follow this criteria that has no basis in why? Like, if you’re telling me, oh, you have to wear pink on Wednesday, why? Why can’t I wear pink on a Friday?

ZA:  

Right? And when you think about it, a lot of us have these kind of, like, synesthesia traits. So, well, pink is not associated with Wednesday, that doesn’t make sense. You know, like, when Tuesday is yellow, that just makes sense. 

HM:  

But if the the rules are like, you know, don’t get don’t get fall down. I’m drunk at the fraternity party because you’re representing the organization, that makes sense, absolutely, that would make sense in an organization to me, or a cultural thing, like something like that. Like, I’ve always been a rule following kid. I was not a troublemaker. I was quiet. I kept to myself. Like, but when rules don’t make sense, such as, oh, we wear pink on a Wednesday. You got at that point, you got me lost. I can do that, but it doesn’t feel right. And why are we wearing pink on Wednesday? Why can’t I wear pink on we wear pink on Friday?

ZA:  

You are right on the nose with that. I, unfortunately, I was a trouble troublemaker. I did not follow the rules because they didn’t make sense to me, and I would I was constantly going head to head with teachers and but why? But why? I needed a reason like you’re saying, why are we doing this on Wednesdays? Why do I have to do this assignment? How is this going to make my life any better or more efficient? You know.

HM:  

I think it took adulthood and going to law school to make me more like that, because as a kid, I really just think so many autistic girls and women particularly fly under the radar as well, because they are the rule followers. They’re quiet. They know it doesn’t get them in trouble. And if you have the adults on your side and they like you, hopefully things will get better. Like I think that’s so much of the rationale for so many folks. So I was an early diagnosed kid, but I was always quiet, and I always knew the adults liked me, and I was good at school, and being good at school meant that a lot of social issues that I’d have, especially as I hit adolescence, would get covered up of, oh, you know, how bad could it really be, or whatever, like, you’re still doing good in school. You’re good at school. There’s no other like, being good at school in so many ways was a shield is, oh well, you’re getting A’s. You’re good at school. Therefore…

ZA:  

Yeah, but we see this with a lot of autistic girls as well, that we are very like precocious and early learners and talkers and tend to excel in school environments. And then the academia part of it as well.

HM:  

And it has the structure and it has the rules that make sense. 

ZA:  

Yes that’s, that’s, yeah, that’s, that’s it right there. They have to make sense. I

HM:  

think so much of academia is like that, even though, you know, when we get further to academia, I’m sure we could be here all day unpacking the sexism and ableism and all the other politics of the ivory tower. But you know.

ZA:  

I also, I also think it’s interesting that you ended up in in law, because my entire life, all I heard was, you’re going to be an actress, a lawyer and a writer, and those are your things, and but, but law was the one that they pushed, even in in college. All my philosophy professor said you have to go to law school. And I see that. I see that with you. And we oftentimes tend to be defenders of justice, right? It just boils our blood when something is in just so it’s, I’m not surprised you ended up in that career field.

HM:  

I am because I was not the litigator type personality, even as a kid, but I was very quiet, like I said, I was not going to argue with people. I was very much. I want the approval, I want to feel safe. I want to be respected, and I realize if I play by the rules, if I do what my job well, if I do what I’m supposed to be doing, I’m going to get that respect and approval and also not get bullied by other people all this other stuff. But I think what drove me to law school at the end of the day was that I let I like you wanted to and was a writer, is realizing lawyers do a lot of that because I’m like, I don’t feel outgoing enough to be a litigator. The great irony of my life is I was a litigator, but then I realized a lot of litigation is just being a good writer and being a good actor.

ZA:  

Yeah, well, let me ask you this, do you have a dual diagnosis of ADHD?

HM:  

I have lots of feelings on whether or not. I should have a dual diagnosis. But you also have to remember, I was diagnosed at a time when they would not diagnose both.

ZA:  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we know that that 80% statistically speaking, 80% of people that are autistic also have ADHD. But the reason that I bring that up is you, you have that you have that kind of structure and all of that which I feel like my ADHD side is constantly in battle. It’s in conflict with my autistic side, right? 

HM:  

I have that same feeling like, I think if you were to have diagnosed me earlier, I probably would have gotten diagnosed with both I do, or at least later in life. I think I would have probably had a dual diagnosis. But there’s so many things that I feel like autism alone doesn’t explain, and I do, I do wonder, though, genuinely, a lot of the time, if I’d have both, but that’s a whole other. That’s a story for another day, on my own kind of mental journey there. But I do think if you were to reassess me, you’d probably get both. I wouldn’t be well, I guess in simpler words, I would not be surprised if I also have ADHD. 

ZA:  

Yeah, well, they say we’ve got, if you got one kind of neurodivergence, then you have at least three minutes, you know, is, is what’s showing.

HM:  

I remember talking to a colleague about this because I remember asking, like, oh, what’s the deal with the AuDHD thing? Like, I was talking to a professional, and they were like, you know, when you were diagnosed as a kid, no, they they basically had to shoot pickles in a barrel and hope they picked Correct. You got the autism diagnosis because you were a late non speaker, basically, like a late speaker, non speaker. But had you been later identified or something, you might have had a different story. And I believe was with maybe in the last decade or so that they began diagnosing both together and realizing that they can exist at the same time. 

ZA:  

Yeah, see that was the biggest shock for me when I got my diagnosis. I feel like I just had the entire alphabet thrown at me. They were like, ASD, PTSD, OCD, ADHD. And on that one I went, Wait a minute. Wait a minute, I have ADHD. I That shocked me. And the doctor was like, yeah, you definitely do. And that was so surprising, because again, it’s the same is autism in the sense that we’re looking for these observable traits. I’m not a little boy bouncing off the walls, but what I am is a female who has 30 tabs in my brain open at once, and I can have a conversation in the left side of my brain, and I’m playing a game of chess in my head on the right side, and and then thinking about a recipe I want to make here in the middle. And if I just had no I just had no idea, because I hadn’t viewed ADHD in that way before.

HM:  

I also have a tendency to believe that a lot of adhders process things a little bit faster than your just straight up Autistics without ADHD.

ZA:  

Absolutely. You know, when I got back to the first brain scan that I got, she told me that I had global spindling beta, which she said that 1% of the population has, and essentially it means that my brain is just spinning so rapidly it’s hard to turn off. I can’t sleep at night. I can’t turn my brain off. It’s exhausting, but it’s, it’s, it’s not, it’s like a computer that goes non stop. And I wonder how many of us have that as well.

HM:  

I can see that. Yeah, I am fascinated by all the different brain things. So I guess my last big thing is, how can we hit this point of self acceptance? Because I think when you’re getting thrown the labels at you, or you’re not feeling like there’s enough information or support, that it’s hard to accept all this about yourself, especially as autistic women, because there is all that focus on the boys, all that focus on the the what the white guys, in particular, the men, the stereotypes, like, how do we accept ourselves? And really, you know, pay that forward.

ZA:  

Well, I think for me, getting a I mean, I I have always been pretty unapologetically myself and but I think for me, getting an actual diagnosis was very freeing, because suddenly I had some answers for why am I the way that I am? I was labeled difficult and dramatic my entire life. So for me, like being having the privilege, because it is a privilege to get a diagnosis as an adult, it’s very expensive, so to have the privilege of understanding who I am in a neurological sense, I think was very freeing for me, and helped me to accept myself more and not think I’m just a crazy person, right? Um, so I try to find the balance between self acceptance and then not using it as a crutch, because it is easy just to be like, Oh, well, I’m on the spectrum. You know, I’ve got a it’s funny, I play tennis, and I have a terrible potty mouth on the court, and I play in this usta league team, and sometimes I get in trouble because I’m yelling and I’m cussing, and it’s very easy for me to say, oops, sorry, I’m autistic, because I’m like, Well, what can they say? Nothing. So finding the balance there, if I’m being real with myself, I do that, but finding the balance between self acceptance and then not using it as a cop out sometimes.

HM:  

I like that.

LB:  

I do too

ZA:  

at the same time, if you’ve gone your whole life being autistic, then maybe you’ve earned it.

HM:  

I’m never right to swear now and then,

LB:  

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

ZA:  

We’re still figuring life and ourselves and everything else out. And the thing is, is that we’re constantly changing and evolving and growing. And so what I would say to other women that are on the spectrum is is like, allow yourself to grow and change and go through phases. You’re not going to be the same person today that you were a year ago or that you are in five years from now. So just kind of like, flow with it, ride with the wave of of your journey in this whole human experience, and try to make the most of it. 

HM:  

I love that, and I think that’s such a beautiful note to end this conversation on. So to help us out, can you remind us how viewers and listeners, excuse me, can follow your work?

ZA:  

Um, I have, uh, I mean, I’m on, I’m on most platforms, ZharaAstra, I’m on Instagram, and I think I got rid of my Twitter. It was a little overwhelming. ZharaAstra.com I mean, I’m the only one in the world with this name. So you can find me if you look me up.

HM:  

I love that. And for the rest of us, be sure to check out differentbrains.org and check out their Twitter and Instagram @diffbrains, and don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me, you can visit me at haleymoss.com, or search me out on whatever social media platform feels most accessible to you.

LB:  

I could be found at cfiexperts.com. Please be sure to subscribe and rate us on your podcast app a choice, and don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking gmail com. Let’s keep the conversation going.