STEM Inclusion for the Neurodivergent, w/ UCONN’s Marisa Chrysochoou PhD & Arash Zaghi PhD | EDB 235
UCONN’s Marisa Chrysochoou PhD & Arash Zaghi PhD discuss their INCLUDE program
(28 minutes) Marisa Chrysochoou, Ph.D. (who also goes by Maria professionally) is Professor and Department Head for Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Connecticut (UCONN). Arash Zaghi, P.E., S.E. is an Associate Professor in Civil and Environmental Engineering at UCONN. The INCLUDE team is working with partners across the UConn campus to create an ecosystem that supports diverse learning styles and cultivates the potential of neurodivergent students to contribute to innovations in engineering. INCLUDE aims to make systemic changes that range across the entire span of a student’s undergraduate experience.
For more info: cee.engr.uconn.edu/include
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FULL TRANSCRIPTION
HACKIE REITMAN, M.D. (HR):
Hi, I’m Dr. Hackie Reitman. Welcome to another episode of Exploring Different Brains. And today we’re so lucky to have coming to us — we’re in Florida and up there in the freezing UCONN. Not Yukon, but U-CONN: University of Connecticut, from their terrific Include program for neurodiversity, Dr. Arash Zaghi. And Dr. Maria Chrysochoou.
MARIA CHRYSOCHOOU, Ph.D. (MC):
My students always call me Dr. C. So there you go (Laughs)
HR:
Why don’t you guys introduce yourselves properly? You go first, Marisa.
MC:
Thank you Hackie. So I’m so happy to meet and talk with you today. So I’m Marisa Chrysochoou. And I am Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Connecticut, also the head of the department, and I am very fortunate to to lead this initiative of the department on neurodiversity.
HR:
Okay, Arash, you’re up,
ARASH ZAGHI, Ph.D. (AZ):
Sure. Thank you for the opportunity. It is great to be with you. today. I’m an associate professor in the Department of Sivan. environment, environmental engineering, Mirza, essentially, is my boss, and a mentor. And, and I started this research actually, a few years back, and here we are today, after many projects that we did,
HR:
First, let me say that I love the Include program that you have. And I love the fact that you’ve created I love in your word, and you’re creating an ecosystem for everything. And then also, that you’re in the Department of Civil Engineering and Environmental as well. So it’s so good to be combining the sustainability with the engineering with all of our different brains, our neuro diversity. Tell us if you can, how you guys started this program.
MC:
So I think that Arash has to answer this question, because he’s really, you know, the, the pioneer in there and the one who initiated all activities related to neurodiversity in the department.
AZ:
Sure, Marisa. So Hackie, it all started with personal experience and my personal diagnosis, actually with ADHD about six, seven years ago. So I was going from a doctor to another one to be able to figure out what’s wrong with me that I have so much anxiety, and it’s so difficult for me that I managed my daily tasks. I think I was in my second year as an assistant professor. And in academia, the pressure is very high on junior faculty. It remains high, but junior faculty, they don’t know how to juggle many balls. And I was extremely fortunate that one of I mean, the last doctor that I met, asked me for five minutes of talking and introduction, “oh, have you been diagnosed with ADHD?” And it was never on my radar, I always knew that I have a slightly different brain, or maybe drastically different brain. Because even going many years back in my primary school, I had problems with some of subjects that they were super easy for other kids. But I had absolutely no problem with challenging like math or physics classes. And so I knew that and but I never wondered if it can be ADHD because I was able to cope with that. But at that point in my life and career, essentially my coping strategies had failed and wasn’t able to actually to manage my daily responsibilities without extreme anxiety.
And so I did a test, it was a self report, and I think that was the highest score I got in in a test ever. So and she said, like, how could this be I mean that you score so high and this and then have never saw any formal diagnosis, that was a big question. But I immediately asked like, what should they do now, I mean, like, this was an new revelation to me. I mean, that was a new identity. And, and, as opposed to immediately writing a prescription for me, she suggested that I educate myself about this. I don’t know if she did that, particularly because she knew I am in academia, I’m into kind of learning about fundamentals of things and like more technical literature, or, she suggests that to all the patients, so anyways, I mean, like she suggested, like a few books, and articles. And they were mainly self help books. But as I was reading, I, again, my ADHD distracted me to more technical scientific articles, mainly discussing the Association of for example, like risk taking, divergent thinking, novelty seeking those traits with ADHD, because like, those self help books, mainly they, they focus on the challenges, I mean, like, problems and issues that that we face, in academia or in the work environment. And I mean, 100% of the focus is on that, maybe they mentioned here and there that “Oh, they are like creative people, sometimes”, I mean, but that’s not their focus. And that’s how they sell their books.
I started like reading some technical article, and like one paper I remember that I found found that like, late at night, and it kept me up like 3am until I finished it. And it was a very interesting work that was done in Norway, in England. And they had done simulations of hypothetical societies with like, population, and they had introduced like, changes, it was all computational work, they had introduced some changes to their kind of food resource. And then they had like, homogenous societies and societies with a percentage of unexpected people with traits similar to what we see, for example, in those with ADHD, risk takers, those that they can think outside the box. And they had shown with those simulations that like those societies, that they are homogenous, and that everyone thinks the same way, likewise, and like they diminish after a few months of introducing that kind of like food shortage. And there is a kind of sweet spot for what percentage of and then — they had done the other like end of the spectrum analysis, and under that everyone is a risk taker, everyone is unexpected. And those societies also diminished. And they had shown that like, seven to 15%, of population, if they have these traits, it helps the survival because they can risk, they can explore new things, unexpected findings, and they can pass along this knowledge and…
HR:
The light went on in your brain to work from the positive that this is, like a superpower you might have. And that if we focus on the positives, we can move forward together much better. And then, and Marisa, so Arash was self discovering his own ADHD and discovering tools and how to go about it and wanted to share this with others. What about your journey?
MC:
Well, I, you know, while all this was happening, I was I was focused on doing my own research. And then what happened was that, like you said, a rash, you know, took, you know, this revelation and turned it into positive, you know, not only for himself, but for others as well, you know, and so he started, you know, with, with research, helping, and projects, helping neurodiverse units in the department, essentially, you know, like, a year or two after his own self discovery. And so by 2018, or 19, you know, when I became department head, you know, we had kind of like, approximately three or four years, I want to say, of, of exposure of the department progressive exposure, you know, to these new ideas new to us, you know, that neurodiversity is in, in engineering and in general for the world is a positive and so when I became department head and I They asked us to be associate head, we were talking about ways that we wanted to improve education, and we wanted to improve, you know, inclusivity in the department as a whole. So that was kind of like my mission and my, you know, my idea for what I want, you know, for, for an engineering school, and I was kind of, like, introduced the neurodiversity lens, into this idea of inclusivity. And I immediately saw that, you know, this is, this is a lens that not many people have taken in our world. And that is, really has a lot of promise for the future and a lot of promise, both for education, but also for innovation in general. And so then, you know, we work together to write a proposal to the national National Science Foundation to take the work that he that he started, you know, to the next level, by embracing it, you know, in the entire department, hopefully, beyond that, as well.
HR:
Now, have you gotten pushback, or has this been embraced?
MC:
It’s been completely embraced, I’m actually, you know, it’s, it’s very interesting, because from the beginning, you know, that as a culture shift, and how that may happen, was, you know, a question mark that we had, and, you know, we kind of like expected that, you know, it may not be easy to accomplish, but there has been has been a tremendous response. And I think there are a couple of different factors. One factor is that I think society as a whole is kind of like moving that way, you know, like, Black Lives Matters and Me Too, you know, and a lot of different socio forces are pushing towards inclusivity. And so, you know, equity and diversity, you know, of like, people should actually know, should also extend to brain differences. And I think people just saw that. The other part is that, you know, there are a lot of people who are new, they’re neurodiverse, and who don’t necessarily say so. Right. And so a lot of people, I think, identify with this, you know, we have students, parents, colleagues, you know, all kinds of people come and say, Oh, my gosh, I was waiting for something like this. So I have been really overwhelmed by the positive response.
HR:
It’s just great. It’s very encouraging to hear that, you know, you use the word “traits”, which is something that’s really coming into focus lately in my own brain. I spoke with Tim Goldstein of TimGoldstein.com, and he introduced me to a term I think he started using with his interns, “neurodistinct” — people have neurodistinct traits, as opposed to looking for the whole diagnosis. There, everyone has so much in common, a little bit more of an ADHD type trait, a little bit. But you know, we’re finding out more for instance, in ADHD, that it’s not so much the focus problem, it’s the executive function. I’m recently self diagnosing myself with adult ADHD because I’m always all over the place. But there is such overlap between, say, ADHD traits, and Asperger’s and autistic traits, and anxiety traits. And they all overlap because you can’t have for instance, autism and not have some anxiety and depression associated with it. So at differentbrains.org we have the mental health issues right there alongside with the developmental differences, right there with the neurological differences such as epilepsy, Parkinson’s, and so forth, because they all coalesce. So what you’ve done there at UConn with the include program is, how has the response been, with enrollment and so forth? For your program?
MC:
I think it’s kind of like too, too early to say right, right Arash?
AZ:
I agree with you. It’s, it’s at its infancy. So, so far, we’ve been very successful in terms of like, raising awareness, making noise, culture shift, and making people aware of this. And Marisa is working really hard to institutionalize it in within the department and beyond. But I think first can speak to that, but I think it takes a few years to see the impact of that on enrollment.
HR:
Well, you know, it’s what I found myself that you know, it’s, like, for instance, our terrific neurodivergent interns, you know, we have six of them applying to medical school. And some of them wanted to “stay in the closet”, so to speak with their neurodiversities. And I said, Well, look, I commuted for 30 years to Boston University as an assistant professor, they’re teaching anatomy in orthopedics. Now I give lectures in neuro diversity up there. But I was an orthopedic surgeon by trade. But I said, you know, when I was for a small period of time, I was on the admissions committee, and you have to do something that distinguishes yourself of being different. And I said, if it was me, I would embrace it. And I’ll kind of a light went on. And I said, make it part of your resume. Be proud of it. So one of them is writing a book on ADHD. And if you go on our website, you’ll see the power tools webisode series with Ali Idriss, who’s going to be a great physician someday, and Brooke Schnitman, who’s an expert in ADHD. We have another with severe OCD. And now she’s writing a book about that, you know, and then to give each other tools, what tools did you use to become successful now that you have a master’s degree, or you’re in college, and I find that getting people to come out of the closet, so to speak, takes a little bit of showing it, it’s in their best interest to do that. When you talk about someone like Shawn Smith, who introduced us to you with don’t-diss-my-abilities, who’s to me is he’s one of the pioneers. He’s going out there and pushing it.
AZ:
He’s fantastic.
HR:
He really is. How did you guys meet Shawn?
MC:
So I have a colleague, Jamie Bar, who is work for Langan engineering. And Jamie and I have been working together on another initiative, the brownfields initiative, you know, for years. And somehow I mentioned this to him as part of one of our meetings. And he introduced me to Shawn, you know, said, You know, I have a friend Sean, who is fantastic, you know, you should talk to him. So, I talked to him. And so, you know, yeah, the next is history, he was included in the proposal. And then we, you know, we’ve began working together ever since.
AZ:
Can I say something about what you mentioned, because it was like, right to the point, you mentioned about, like, these traits, and for example, like, we have ADHD, and we have like, anxiety, depression, and, and that’s very true, that’s what we are seeing the prevalence of, for example, anxiety, and, and depression is like, way higher than, like, “normal people”. But I want to make a case here that it’s not supposed to be like that. It and it wasn’t like that. In like ancient societies, because they had the luxury of to do doing things, their own way, adventure seeking and risk taking, they were Hunter, they were warrior, I mean, like, there were there was nothing in that time to bore you, or, you know, like you make you kind of like, frustrated with life. So and we gradually after we started farming, and all of those things. And then I think I mean, like the knockout actually I would say punch was our over-standardized education system.
HR:
One size fits all.
AZ:
One size fits all, I mean, look at the standard test. It is a standardized, how you perform, if you’re a good standardized test, they measure standard brains or capabilities of standard brain so they don’t do anything else other than that, so and it’s fine if we say okay, this education system, you know, like for people to know, it is only designed for this segment of the society. So others they find their own way. And you know, like, because tech people I mean, like those giants and innovators in in tech industry, they many of them are dropouts, they don’t care about education. I mean…
HR:
And the one size fits all that permeates our employment system, our educational system. Everything about us is well like my daughter taught me You know, every brain There’s like a snowflake, and no two are alike. And once we get that head in there, then everything gets easy. Once you look at an individual like that and say, gee, you’re, you’re a site’s not so good. Maybe I’m not going to write on the blackboard, or you can hear, maybe I want to have you listened to tapes. And it can be that simple, but we seem to make it much more difficult. Now, you guys are in civil engineering. And tell us tell me your thoughts on this subject of universal design for accessibility? Marisa. I’m gonna put you on the spot.
MC:
Okay. Well, I, we think that universal design is a great foundation on which to start. So universal design is kind of like the minimum on which our project wanted to build, you know, so so you start from the idea that, yes, you’re going to have multiple modes of representation, you’re going to have captions, you know, and all these things. But that is something that is, we think we can go beyond that and go do better than that, in the sense that we don’t want to focus on accessibility, we don’t want to focus on what you cannot do and remedy that. But we want to focus on people’s strengths. And, and students abilities instead of, you know, instead of the remedy. So So while you were using universal design as a tool, we don’t think that that alone is going to make the difference in terms of the educational system.
HR:
Where can people learn more about the include program?
AZ:
The website I will suggest,
MC:
Yes, right now is the website. I mean, it’s it’s, it’s probably it doesn’t, I guess it doesn’t have a whole lot of information on this right now. Because we’re building we’re actually building a new website, that’s going to be called neurodiversity.uconn.edu. That’s gonna be you know, a more general resource. We have put more information, more effort into, you know, our, our activities, rather than advertising the program itself.
HR:
Can they email you? Can they have how would people if people have an interest in your include program at UConn? How can they contact you and learn more?
MC:
Oh, so they the information is on the website, you know, my contact information and the contact information of the program manager, Connie, Sahara is also is also there. So we, we have put more effort so far into, in, you know, increasing awareness and people learning about the project within the university through different avenues. Our next step is, we are conducting a high school outreach program within the state. So we’re going to be talking, you know, in and creating some webinars for, I think something like 800 high schools or something like that within the state of Connecticut. So our efforts have mostly been local, because we are the flagship university of the state of Connecticut. So 75% of our students are actually from the state. But if people outside from the state, you know, want to learn about it, yes, I guess the website is the best, the best place to find us. And we will be populating more with videos and webinars and things like that, as we’re creating content.
HR:
Is there anything we have not covered today that you would like to cover?
MC:
I think you know that one message that I would like to get, you know, to, to like, young people out there is that, you know, you know, it’s important to advocate for yourself, it’s important to believe in your own abilities and your own strengths. And, you know, to find, to find your place in the world and engineering, you know, and STEM may not always, you know, feel welcoming, but we believe that, you know, all neurodiverse people have not just a place in engineering and STEM, but they are critical for the future of it. And so, you know, we’d really like to, you know, for for young people to see themselves as future creators and join our ranks.
HR:
Arash, what would you say?
AZ:
And if I may use your platform actually to… so what I hope very soon and when it’s soon is like in a year or two, we start realizing that terminology matters. And the word that we use to describe a condition, it doesn’t need to come from, like medical fields. I mean, we call something deficit disability things — and that medical field needs to be as specific as possible. And things are set in a way. And it doesn’t matter. There are names. I mean, like, they don’t they’re not ashamed of naming things, different names. I mean, like, that’s medical field. Education doesn’t need to be like that. In education, we don’t need to call his student disabled because they are not, they are not I don’t consider myself disabled. I’m different. In this context, yes, I’m very different. I have challenges but I’m not disabled. disabled. Let’s think about the definition. Let’s think about the meaning of that. It means that I’m incapable, I cannot do things. So terminology matters. And we have to be very careful how we describe this kids. Because that term using that terminology in education leads to stigmatizing stigmatism stigmatization of this kids. And that leads to a lot of other problems because they see this pressure and they don’t, they don’t feel comfortable to discuss this with others, and they internalize this kind of pain, their their own experience, if it was something that we could just openly discuss. And say like a How should these experiences are, I have students have worked with groups that we have there, they have ADHD, and we talk about our experiences just like it’s funny and when is the how similar those are. So it should be like that. And when we discuss when when you laugh it out. It’s not going to be something that you blame yourself for. It doesn’t corrode your confidence, essentially. So I think that’s that’s very important that we start using the right terminology, in education and in general.
HR:
Well, it’s been a pleasure to have you both here. Thank you so much. Arash and Marisa from the University of Connecticut Include program, keep up the great work you both do for those of us whose brains are a bit different. And we hope to see you again soon. Thank you so much.
MC:
Thank you to Hackie. It’s been a pleasure chatting with you.
AZ:
Thank you Hackie. We really appreciate the opportunity
