The Autistic Guide to Adventure, with Allie Mason | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 141
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IN THIS EPISODE:
In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts speak with author and autism self-advocate Allie Mason. Allie Mason is an autistic children’s author with her first book, The Autistic Guide to Adventure, publishing in 2023. She lives in the English countryside with her partner and their beloved Labrador. The purpose of her writing is to give neurodivergent young people a place where they recognize themselves and feel that they belong.
For more about Allie:
https://www.instagram.com/alliewrote/
https://www.tiktok.com/@alliewrote
And to order a copy of The Autistic Guide to Adventure – expected in late March 2023:
https://uk.jkp.com/products/the-autistic-guide-to-adventure
https://www.amazon.com/Autistic-Guide-Adventure-Pursuits-Swimming/dp/1839972173
—————–
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com
Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:
HALEY MOSS (HM):
Hello, and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Haley Moss, an author, artists attorney, and I’m also autistic. Every week I get to share the fantastic Spectrumly stage with my one and only co host.
DR LORI BUTTS (LB):
Hi, I’m Dr. Lori Butts. I’m a psychologist and an attorney.
HM:
How are you?
LB:
I’m good. How are you?
HM:
I feel like I am doing pretty well. I got to relax a little bit this week, which I feel like it’s almost unheard of.
LB:
Yes, that’s awesome.
HM:
I feel like everybody needs a little bit of relaxation in their lives and kind of just giving yourself permission to be like, hey, I can step back from some stuff for a little bit. I can breathe, I can sleep a little bit more. And attempt to keep those New Year’s resolutions or whatever going. Because I know that we’re at the point in the year where folks may or may not have given up. I’m trying not to be that person.
LB:
Well, every day you can start over again. It doesn’t have to be you know….
HM:
Exactly. I noticed that especially if you go out to say like gyms and stuff, you realize they’re super crowded, and then all of a sudden it just jumps off. I noticed that almost every year. And it’s really funny to me.
LB:
It is it is but people have to understand that you just have to recommit every day.
HM:
Pretty much I think the reason it really confuses me with gyms in particular is folks who are paying every month or every couple weeks or whatever to be here or not be here. And if they are choosing to just give up on the resolution like wow, look at that commitment. You actually made this financial commitment and you just kind of let it go. But you didn’t give up on the financial commitment part of it, just the physical part of it. Okay. It just doesn’t make sense in my brain.
LB:
It makes sense financial wise for the gyms that’s for sure.
HM:
Yeah, but for the person that’s like, if you’re gonna decommit go all out and you’re, like decommit, the payment plan and the rest of it is such a mystery to me. I don’t five logic, but that’s neither here nor there. But we are talking about adventure and getting out there and doing all sorts of amazing stuff. And we have a very cool guest to meet today.
LB:
I’m so excited. Me too.
HM:
So today we are welcoming our new friend, Allie Mason. And Allie Mason is an autistic children’s author with her first book, The Autistic guide to adventure publishing this year in 2023. She lives in the English countryside with her partner and their beloved Labrador. The purpose of her writing is to give neurodivergent young people a place where they recognize themselves and feel that they belong. Full disclosure, I got to read an advanced copy of Allie’s book and get to write something for hopefully the back cover. And I’m so excited to welcome you to the show.
ALLIE MASON (AM):
Thank you so much. That was so many kind words to start off with.
HM:
We genuinely love our guests, and having you is an honor for us. So to kind of start us from the beginning, would you mind sharing with listeners how you became involved in the autism community?
AM:
Absolutely. So I was a late diagnosed autistic, I didn’t get diagnosed until I was 23 years old. And that was back in 2020. And interestingly enough, as I was growing up, my mum worked in a special educational needs school with autistic children. And yet she came home every day and didn’t recognize that she had one in her own house. So we always laugh about that. But yeah, I got my formal diagnosis in 2020. But I’ve been kind of living as a self diagnosed autistic person since 2019, which is when I had the personal revelation that this was my brain and the reason why it works in certain ways. And off the back of that I just have met and talked to and got to know so many other amazing autistic and neurodivergent people. And now I’m kind of a part of this community. I’ve got this found family, which is really, really exciting. And I get to do amazing things like this podcast.
LB:
What got you into writing and why specifically for kids for children?
AM:
So I have been writing ever since I was a small child. It’s very much the cliche of being a writer has been my dream for as long as I can remember. And I used to write really long and complicated, complicated stories as a child. And I remember when I was maybe 10, or 11, I entered what I didn’t realize was an adult novel competition with my own novel that I had written at 10 years old. And so yeah, I’ve just kind of always been writing. And it’s always been how I’ve expressed myself, and it’s something that I’ve always been quite good at, in terms of receiving praise and people encouraging me and, and wanting to read what I’ve written. So I think it kind of snowballed from there. And then to answer the second part of your question, why children, I think that there can be a lot of expectations around what adult writing looks like, like writing for adults, it’s kind of — I don’t really know how to put it into words, but I feel like there’s a lot of, of expectations and there’s a lot of kind of etiquette around it if you like, whereas writing for kids, you have so much more freedom. And I don’t necessarily believe that it should be that way. I think that there should definitely be more room for for playful writing in the adult sphere. But that’s kind of what drew me to it primarily was just being able to, to express myself creatively in that playful way.
LB:
I’m always so — I can’t even think of the right word. I admire people who write, because I just don’t have that creative ease. And I love that, that this has been your passion and your dream. That’s just amazing.
HM:
I admire anyone who wants to write for young people and children in particular, because I feel like the older we get, the harder it is sometimes. Or if you’re not around kids a lot. Let’s figure out how to make things approachable and fun for them.
AM:
Yeah, yeah, that’s really interesting, actually. Because I’ve always found, for example, if I’m in a social situation, and there’s a kids table, I will go and set the kids table because I just feel more comfortable there. And I think it’s because there are so few. I’m going to use the word expectations a lot. But yeah, expectations and kind of understandings of societal norms and stuff. So for me getting into that headspace is really easy, because it’s kind of where I prefer to be.
HM:
That makes a lot of sense. I also like the kids table at those bigger social gatherings like, and something else I’ve noticed about the kids table is they get served earlier. So if you’re someone who is always really hungry for food, and you get it before the adults. I know that’s kind of a strange observation. But that’s something…
LB:
That’s a great observation, you’re so right.
HM:
Like birthday parties, barn bought mitzvahs, weddings, that’s always how it goes. And it makes me so grateful every time and then you see all these like, little tiny people. And then you see adult mean, and you see a bunch of little tiny people on the line.
AM:
Yeah, but it’s so true. And I think that’s really interesting, because I am somebody who gets very hangry. And I have a bit of a reputation within my kind of family and friends circles of being that person where if I’m not fed, I’m quite difficult to be around. So maybe that’s also been what’s drawing me to these kiddie tables.
HM:
And then I realized that the other adults realize, Oh, you’re onto something that you got to the line person and all other adults lining up behind the children, and it just never gets old to me every time that happens. But kind of to go back to where we started with writing. I I personally know quite a bit about your new book, but I want everyone else to learn a bit more about The Autistic Guide to Adventure. Can you share more with us?
AM:
Of course. Absolutely. It’s so exciting to me. First off that you’ve read it already. I’m definitely going to have to ask you what you thought later on in the podcast. But in terms of what the book is about. So The Autistic Guide to Adventure is what I would describe as a handbook. So it’s a compilation of 35 different activities that get autistic kids and young people outdoors and involved in nature. And there’s a real variety of activities in there. We’ve got kind of your traditional sports things like swimming and running and cycling and that kind of stuff. But then there are also some more creative activities. So we have things like drawing and nature it thing. And then some of my favorite activities to research and write about were what I’ve called Finding and identifying activities. So they are things like foraging and beach combing, and sossel, hunting, all that stuff that our brains are, like naturally wired to be amazing. But you wouldn’t necessarily think of doing on your average Saturday morning. So yeah, that’s kind of a an overview of what’s in the book. And the idea is that you can dip in and out of it, depending on what you’re feeling, like the activities are all split into little kind of fact sheets that take you through what sensory expectations to have, and how to get started, and what kit’s involved, and what kind of like social expectations that are for that activity. So just trying to cover all bases, really, because when I was growing up, and I wanted to get involved in all this kind of stuff, there were a lot of invisible barriers there for me that I now realized were things like, sensory difficulties and difficulties in social situations. So being able to provide that in advance for people, I’m hoping is going to really enable them to feel confident and comfortable in what might be trying a new activity for the very first time.
LB:
How do you feel children’s books in general are doing in terms of recognizing autistic readers?
AM:
Badly? Yeah, I think that when children’s books do recognize autistic or neurodivergent characters, it’s always a stereotype at the moment. So I don’t necessarily see a lot of representation of kids who were who are like I was, for example, or kids who don’t fit that very specific, young, white boy, playing with trains kind of scenario. Right?
LB:
And so, how do you think the industry can improve?
AM:
I think there needs to be more autistic authors to start with, I think that it’s really important that these stories come from the perspective of people who have that lived experience, and also people who come from a range of different backgrounds, whether that’s their gender, their sexuality, their socio economic upbringing, race, etc. Religion, I think it’s really important that the way that being neurodivergent, or being autistic intersects with those different identities needs to be explored more. But I feel like that’s kind of stage five and where we’re currently at stage one will take a long way to go until we get there.
HM:
There really is so much work to do in that representation space, too. And I feel like something that’s frustrating when you have a lot of these very neurotypical by neurotypical for neurotypical stories about autism. So it almost ignores that autistic readers exist.
AM:
Definitely, I think that you could argue that they’re written more for kind of like parents and family of autistic people. So they kind of recognize what they experience in these books. But I wouldn’t say that the autistic readers themselves necessarily recognize themselves in the books.
HM:
That’s how I actually felt so I, I grew up in the 90s. And I remember reading The Babysitter’s Club.
AM:
and I loved those books.
HM:
But there was one that was about an autistic character. And she was largely non speaking, fit this very savant stereotype gifted piano player can recall data at the drop of a hat, one of those type folks, and the language was so outdated as well, because it was written in 1990. And I remember this was my only frame of reference about autism growing up until I was about nine and my parents told me I was autistic. And I remember having to reconcile this information I was being told with The Babysitter’s Club and being a little bit confused because I think she the character in The Babysitter’s Club had what is formerly known as Rhett syndrome. As we know everything kind of got folded into one big ASD diagnosed CES. Still, I felt like I don’t have that. I’m very talkative, except I’m shy. And I am not going away to some special school like I was trying to make sense of all this information to my little nine year old brain. So yeah, there’s a lot here to think about. But definitely, representation I feel like can be its entire own conversation and easily take away from what we’re trying to do here. So kinda go back to you, and all the really cool stuff that you are telling us about. What else are you working on next. I mean, I’m really excited to see your first book out in the world. And I am honestly excited to know what else you’re up to.
AM:
Oh, thank you. So I have a couple of kind of conferences coming up, which is really exciting. So off the back of the book and kind of people understanding what I’m advocating for. I’ve been invited to speak at a conference on inclusive sport later this year, which I’m really looking forward to. And I’m also going to be running a workshop at a conference on outdoor accessibility. So just making sure that autism and wider neurodiversity is covered within those conversations. Because I think often when we talk about inclusivity, in sport and the outdoors, people think visible disabilities, for example, or they’ll think about race or sexuality or gender. And we don’t have very much out there at the moment talking about neurodiversity, and invisible disabilities and things like that. So I’m really excited for that. And very hopeful that book two might be a thing. I’m very much overwhelmed with ideas, and not sure which wasn’t an issue at the moment. But when I narrow it down, we’ll hopefully get Book Two,
LB:
And then three, and then four…
AM:
That’s how it works, Lori.
HM:
I think that’s exactly what ends up happening, too, is that you’re excited to go what with what’s next. And then you’re like, oh, my gosh, I gotta actually do the thing again. And I hope us across the pond some time to that would be extremely cool.
AM:
I would love that I actually recently came back from a trip to the Pacific Northwest. So we went to Seattle and drove across to Montana, and then to Yellowstone. And I absolutely loved it. So definitely top of my travel list is to come back stateside.
HM:
you’ve done a trip that I would also love to do. It might be a great adventure, and use us along some of your stuff as well.
AM:
Yeah, 100%. I think that’s what I need to do. I think I need to plan a really big adventure and write a book about that. That would be pretty awesome.
HM:
Yeah, so how can we also stay in touch with you and learn more about what you’re doing too.
AM:
So I have my own web site, which is www.alliewrote.com. And you can also find me on social media. I’m on Instagram and very occasionally TikTok. And that’s alliewrote there as well.
HM:
So we’re going to actually transition a little bit from our interview portion, we’re going to talk more about how we can explore athleticism, activities, and active lifestyles for those on the spectrum. And I know that for some of us, being an athlete might seem completely out of reach. I certainly was no athlete. My athletic experience in life and sports games and stuff was pretty limited. I rode horses as a child had a career ending injury, tried to join my High School’s rowing team and passed out the first day of practice on the water. So my athletic career never quite took off. Doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be accessible or something new to try and how can we get into this safely? I think because I personally do not feel like I have the body awareness sometimes and I am the person that even looking at some of the different activities that you’ve outlined in your book like things like archery or hiking or something like I feel like I might hurt myself right away.
AM:
Yeah, I completely agree with you on that Haley, like I was never particularly active and sporty as a child and as an adult. Not only does that in itself mean that I’m not particularly confident with with trying these different sports but you add in the aspects of being autistic and it’s just double trouble, isn’t it? So I think in terms of how to be safe and doing these activities, definitely if you’re doing something which involves a coach or a team, or that has kind of supervisors around, then your best bet is to have a conversation about where you’re where you should be, and what you should be doing and what you should be touching and not touching. So for example, in the book, when I talk about sailing, one of the recommendations that we have is that you ask your leader or trainer or whoever it is, to put sticky tape markers on the boat to show you where to stand, so that you don’t go flying off the side in the middle of the water. But yeah, things like that can be so simple, and so inexpensive as well, like, accommodations don’t have to be expensive.
LB:
The issue — and when we talk about accommodations, often on the on the show, and I always kind of go back to but it takes somebody who has the courage or the strength or whatever word you want to put to be able to speak up for themselves. And to me like that’s one, that’s a big hurdle for a lot of people.
AM:
Yes, 100%. And I think I talk about this in the book, because the reason why I wanted to write it and to have it available for people is because the only reason I’m kind of not the only reason but one of the biggest reasons that I’m doing so well in terms of trying different activities. And having a go at different sports is the fact that I am able to advocate for myself, I do have that confidence, I am comfortable saying I’m autistic. And this is what I need. But that has come from a lot of research and a lot of conversations with other autistic people. And a lot of practice as well, you know, in the beginning when I was first diagnosed, and I decided that I was going to pursue the active lifestyle that I’d always wanted. I wasn’t necessarily particularly good at advocating for myself. And that’s something that the more you do it the more the more comfortable you become. That having resources like my book available is going to play a big part in people knowing what to say like just knowing what words to use to be able to ask these things.
HM:
I also love when we talk about adventure, it doesn’t mean you have to be active in the way that you think you do. But a lot of it just means getting outside of your comfort zone. So for instance, even going you talk in your book as well about things like beachcombing and photography and drawing like things in the arts and just kind of just getting outside and touching nature essentially. So I really liked that. When we talk about what it means to have an adventure or an active lifestyle, it doesn’t mean you have to be a great runner or any of that too. So how did that kind of come about to I think is when we talk about adventure that it doesn’t mean you have to push yourself too far to the point of say, meltdowns, or shutdowns or just a complete overwhelm. So I love that you told us what to expect sensory wise for literally everything.
AM:
I think you’ve hit on a really, really important point there. And that is that when I first started thinking about the book, the whole idea of it being an autistic guide to adventure, specifically, was the fact that adventure should not be inaccessible to autistic people. And if it’s going to be defined very narrowly, in terms of going on big expeditions and exploring wilderness and climbing ice mountains and whatever else, then that’s not something that the majority of the autistic popular population can even consider doing. And so I wanted to turn that narrative on its head and kind of talk about well, how can you include adventure in your everyday life when you have sensory difficulties or you are prone to shutdowns and meltdowns, or you might need additional support. You might need somebody there with you when other people can do it on their own. And that’s, that shouldn’t be something that people feel ashamed of or embarrassed of. It’s something that should empower them because they know what they need in order to achieve what they want to achieve.
HM:
I just appreciate that there really is something for everybody and I think this is something that’s really interesting as you never know, where these types of adventures are just trying something outside of your comfort zone just a little bit or just trying to get outside where it can lead you. So there’s things that I know, even when I got to read advanced coffee, I was like, Oh, this is something I might want to check out some time where I didn’t realize that I’ve been doing but I enjoyed it anyway. So there, cuz I think a lot of us, especially as we hit our adult lives, that work and family obligations, and so much other stuff kind of just takes control, the front seat that we forget: what do we enjoy? And what do we want to try or we can still try something new, that you’re not too old or too far gone to try something?
AM:
Definitely. And also, if there was something that you enjoyed as a child that you haven’t done for many years, then I hope that people will feel encouraged to revisit that. Because that was something that happened for me is that when I was a kid, I absolutely loved roller skating. And I have a picture up on my bookshelf of me, probably about, I want to say four years old, and my very first pair of roller skates with my granddad. And I, I kind of drifted away from that as a teenager, you know, you become self conscious, and you get so busy with school and various other things life gets in the way. And then you get like me to the age of 24. And you think, oh my goodness, I loved roller skating. But I haven’t put on a pair of roller skates in many, many years. So yeah, that’s, that’s a really good point.
HM:
That sounds like — So on a previous episode and one of our beginning phases, I’m pretty sure I talked about how I love drawing and painting. And I feel like I just didn’t have time for it. And I bought a huge set of markers that I never would have bought when I was younger. Because they were artist markers. They worked events personally. And I’m like, now I can do this. And I was so excited to get to use them. And just create and have fun the way that I would when I was younger, and there wasn’t really any pressure to do it, or there wasn’t any pressure to be anything other than just a kid. And I think, though, something that I appreciate that much more about doing something creative at this point is like, Oh, I could just zone out for a little bit. I can go have fun, I can do something else, cool.
AM:
Yeah. And also the idea that it doesn’t have to be too specific. And so I think that there’s a lot of conversation online around kind of hustle culture, and always having to work and turning your hobbies into your job, etc, etc, etc.
HM:
I tried turning it into my job, and it made me super stressed. So I’m happier with creating as a hobby than a job.
AM:
Exactly. People need to know that that’s an option. Like you can just have fun. You don’t have to be getting paid for it. You don’t even have to be good at it. As long as you’re enjoying yourself.
HM:
That’s all that matters. And I think that’s something that feels really important about this conversation is it’s just about having a good time. It’s not about making it to the Olympics. It’s not about being competitive. It’s not about making money. It’s just about doing something that makes you feel something. Like that’s kind of the big takeaway that I’m getting.
AM:
Yeah, one of the things that was really important to me about. So also within the book, there are profiles of different and I call them athletes, but they’re not all athletes. hobbyist is probably a more accurate word. But there are profiles of different autistic people who regularly do the activity, talking about what their experience of it has been like. And some of these people are professionals. You know, for example, we’ve got Sam Holness in there who’s a professional autistic triathlete. So he’s talking about it from a very professional point of view of he found something that he loves, and he’s made it into a job. But then we also have people like Steve Watson in the cycling section. sigh cycling is not his job. He’s not paid to do that. He just does it because he loves it. And so it was really important for me to make sure that there was a wide range of representation in there so that people didn’t read the book and think I was saying you’ve all got to be Olympic athletes right now.
HM:
I think that’s perfect. And I feel like that’s such a great note to send folks off with is: Hey, you don’t have to be this big, you don’t have to overthink it. You don’t need to be perfect. You need to try something go have fun and do something that brings you joy or that makes you feel like your mood if you want to move your body that feels healthy and safe and enjoyable for you that there’s no other kind of pretense behind it almost.
AM:
Yeah. 100%. And if you try something and you don’t like it, that’s cool as well. Like, it’s a journey of learning what you enjoy and what you don’t. And if you give, have a go at something and you’re like, Well, this one’s not for me. There’s, there’s so much else that you can try. And maybe you’ll spend your whole life trying, but you’ll learn so much during that point. Yeah.
HM:
I love that. And I think that’s a great note to sign off on this conversation. So thank you, ally for joining us, you should definitely be checking out her new book, The Autistic Guide to Adventure, it’s going to be out this year, I am pretty sure it is something that you are going to want to have in your library. It’s something that I feel very grateful to already have in my life. So that to me, that’s just like the wildest thing and I’m so grateful that you and Jessica Kingsley publishers had thought of me. And immediately after I got him like, we need to talk to you. Make sure to follow Allie on her website on TikTok on any social media that she mentioned earlier as well. For the rest of us, be sure to check out different brains.org and check out their Twitter and Instagram at difference and don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. As for yours truly, I can be found at Haleymoss.com or on all major social media looking forward to saying hello to you.
LB:
I can be found at CFIexperts.com and please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes and don’t hesitate to send questions to Spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going.
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
