Cover Image - We Need Diverse Books, With Alaina Lavoie | Spectrumly Speaking Ep. 142

We Need Diverse Books, with Alaina Lavoie | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 142

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IN THIS EPISODE:

In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts speak with autism self-advocate and journalist Alaina Lavoie. Alaina, who publishes journalism under the byline Alaina Leary, is a program manager at We Need Diverse Books and affiliated faculty at Emerson College. Her work has been published in the New York Times, Boston Globe Magazine, Good Housekeeping, Refinery29, Glamour, Teen Vogue, and more. She lives with her wife, three literary cats, and a rainbow bookshelf outside of Boston, MA.

For more about Alaina:

http://www.alainaleary.com/ 

 

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Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.


Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.

For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com

Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:  

 

HALEY MOSS (HM): 

Hello, and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Haley Moss, and attorney, author, advocate. And I’m also autistic. I feel very blessed to get to share the Spectrumly stage with my one and only co host… Drumroll please…

 

DR LORI BUTTS (LB): 

I talk over your drum roll. I’m Lori Butts. I’m an attorney and a psychologist. How are you, Haley?

 

HM: 

I’m doing great. Honestly, I don’t mind when you talk over the drum roll because that’s a disaster because I don’t think we have the good sound effects around here. We improvise. It’s part of being human. But I am hanging in there. I mean, I feel like I’m always up to something. You are trying to have some fun adventures, some work adventures, some much needed rest as well. But I’m doing the best I can which is I think what any of us can really say. That’s wonderful. No, no major life developments since our last episode, unfortunately.

 

LB: 

No, that’s actually that’spretty good. Hanging steady and taking care of yourself. I’ll good things. That’s great.

 

HM: 

But sometimes you wish that you had a major life development to share like, hey, guess what? Spectrumly fam. I’m getting married. I am doing some thing. I started a new job. Like you always wish you had something interesting to share. Life is being life. I mean, one day at a time. No marriage engagements, pregnancies jobs, which is moves nothing major here. What about you?

 

LB: 

Same, same ol. Same. We’ll just trucking along.

 

HM: 

Thankfully on the podcast we don’t get to just sit here and kind of vibe with the fact that we have nothing else going on. We get to welcome new people and have good conversations, which is something going on. So I guess that’s something that’s still going on in my life. Is that you and I, Dr. Buts have been at this for quite a long time.

 

LB: 

Exactly. I’m looking forward to today very much.

 

HM: 

Me too. So are you just ready to get going? ‘Cause I am. On that note, we are welcoming Alaina Lavoie today. And Alaina Lavoy publishes journalism under the byline Alaina Leary. Alaina is a program manager at We Need Diverse Books and is affiliated faculty at Emerson College. Her work has been published in the New York Times, Boston Globe magazine, Good Housekeeping, refinery, 29, Glamour, Teen Vogue, and more. She lives with her wife, three literary cats and a rainbow bookshelf outside of Boston, Massachusetts. Welcome to the show.

 

ALAINA LAVOIE (AL): 

Thank you so much, Haley. I’m so excited to be here.

 

HM: 

I am too, especially because I know that I have talked to you offline. I know we’ve worked together before. And this is the first time I think I actually got to talk to you with voice. So it’s actually a pretty cool feeling.

 

AL: 

The feeling is definitely mutual.

 

HM: 

So to kind of get our conversation started, are you can you share with us what put you on the journey towards advocating for diversity in literature?

 

AL: 

I’d be happy to I have to say that I feel like growing up, actually, in the world that we are in is what put me on that journey. I know that sounds super silly, but I was a child of the 90s and early 2000s. And as a disabled person — I’m autistic and I also have Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, which was not diagnosed until later but was fairly apparent in my childhood looking back — and as a queer person, I also felt like there were no books out there for me. And when I did read books that I resonated with, I felt like I had to appreciate certain aspects of the book and realize that no book was going to kind of encompass both of those parts of me, you know, I might find a book where there was queer or sapphic content, but it was very unlikely that I was also going to find something with a disabled protagonist. And I found like a lot of books were very reductive. They relied on stereotypes and there just wasn’t a lot being published by authors who also self identified as queer and or disabled. Obviously things get better over time. And I got to see that change as I got older. But it really all started in childhood. For me, I wanted to be a part of changing that. And I’ve always wanted to write my own stories and in that way, be a part of changing it. And it didn’t really occur to me until I was in college that I could also pursue a career where I would get to work with books and actually get to help authors, besides myself, put their work into the world and be able to champion those marginalized voices. So for me, it all just came down to something personal, which was recognizing that if I was a child, and I couldn’t find my representation in a book, then I was far from the only one. And this was probably happening to lots of other readers, especially other marginalized readers.

 

LB: 

Can you tell us about We Need Diverse Books?

 

AL: 

I’d be happy to Yeah, We Need Diverse Books actually began as a hashtag online in 2014. And it was a reaction originally to a Book Expo panel. When Book Expo still existed, there was a panel. And I believe that there were no authors of color on the panel or very few authors of color on the panel. And I think Grumpy Cat was on the panel or, or something like that. And authors began a hashtag: #WeNeedDiverseBooks, essentially, in response to that issue, and the general issue of a lack of diversity in the industry, and just a lack of support for marginalized authors. And soon after, those authors, illustrators, publishing professionals came together and decided to start a nonprofit organization. They wanted to actually take action and they said, Okay, well, this is a problem that has existed and individuals have been advocating for marginalized authors for decades. You know, there’s Walter Dean Myers, there’s Jacqueline Woodson, you know, Octavia Butler, I mean, Toni Morrison, they’re just there’s so many marginalized authors, especially authors of color, who have always champions, marginalized in diverse voices. But they wanted to organize that effort into a nonprofit, and hope that that might help spark some real change from the publishing industry. And in 2015, when I graduated from college, I started volunteering for We Need Diverse Books, I found out about the organization for the first time, and I said to myself, well, that sounds like my kind of place, I’d love to do some work for you all, if you are looking for volunteers. And that’s where it all started for me.

 

HM: 

I love that. And I’m so grateful for the work you do. And even when you do point out things about how, as marginalized folks, we often don’t feel represented in books, I had a very similar experience growing up as a as a disabled autistic person. And as a Jewish person, I didn’t feel represented beyond just stereotypes or even our community pain. So that is something that resonates a lot with me. And I thank you for sharing that. On that note, what would you consider to be the biggest hurdle to having diversity in books?

 

 

AL:

I honestly think that capitalism is the biggest hurdle. I think that book publishing is a part of the same system that everything else is. And, you know, unfortunately, we’re not often taught this in schools. But America is founded on a capitalist system. It’s founded on white supremacy. It’s founded on the genocide of native and indigenous peoples it’s founded on, you know, slavery and black pain and black trauma. So America has this embedded into its roots. And it’s, you know, it’s system as a colonized nation. And every industry unfortunately suffers from that, because we are all a part of that history. So I think that the biggest problem with advocating for diverse books is really capitalism because at the end of the day, publishers are working towards a bottom line, and even nonprofit publishers, which may have a little more freedom from that are still working towards this and it’s very hard, because publishing is an old system. It’s an old, you know, industry and there are a lot of outdated values and outdated needed ideas about what is marketable and who purchases books and who reads them. So I think for a long time that has really held back the possibility of marginalized folks being at the forefront of that innovation and that creation, because ultimately, that’s the biggest barrier, right? I mean, who can, who can genuinely afford to take all of the time that it takes to create a book without any guarantee of publication or payments, it’s a, an extreme privilege to work in publishing, it has historically been an extreme privilege that was mostly ran by straight cis white men for such a long time because they had the privilege of doing so. And, unfortunately, that has been the biggest barrier. I think it’s the biggest barrier for folks who want to work in the industry. And it’s the biggest barrier for creatives who want to publish their work and publish their artists, illustrators. And that’s something that We Need Diverse Books recognizes, and has been trying to fight back as much as possible, especially with financial grants that make it possible for folks to actually pursue their creative passions.

 

LB: 

Could you tell us a bit about what your work as a sensitivity and authenticity reader entails?

 

AL: 

I would be happy to. I as a sensitivity reader, and there are so many different names for sensitivity readers, including authenticity reader, but essentially, when I’m hired for this work, I’m looking for the representation in a book of a specific type of experience. A lot of the time that experience is a marginalized identity. So it might be artistic representation, it might be representation of EDS, or a very, very similar condition. It might be bisexual representation, or queer sapphic representation. Or it might even be an experience, sometimes folks will hire a sensitivity reader to read for grief and loss, for example, or growing up with less money or low income, it might be, you know, the experience of sexual assault or something like that. So I, personally will only take on projects that I feel like I have the expertise and the personal experience to do, and that I can also do within the deadline. And then I’m reading the manuscripts, whatever length it is anything from a short essay to a full book, essentially, for just that particular representation. Although I will point out other things, if I see them, if I’m hired to read for autistic representation, and I’m reading the book, and I come across something that’s anti black or racist or anti semitic, I’m going to point it out, I’m not going to ignore it.

But my primary focus is really to look for that particular representation. So I may say, Hey, I’m seeing some, you know, really racist stuff in here, I think you should hire a sensitivity reader on this. I mean, if it’s like really aggressive, I’m probably going to say, like scrap this project, if I can. But if I’m seeing some, like really small stuff that somebody might not realize micro aggressions or something, I’m going to point it out. And then I’m also going to point out everything that I’m actually hired for. So if it’s artistic representation, I’m looking at that character, I’m looking at how they move through the world, their relationships, I’m looking at the plot, I’m looking at tropes and stereotypes, really just essentially trying to offer any suggestions and feedback that I can on how to improve the representation. And it’s not focused on story. It’s not focused on plot or pacing or dialogue. So I’m not there as an editor. And that makes it challenging, you know, you have to ignore something that might make the book better in a different way. But you’re there to look for that representation, and only to look for that. So there are cases where I will make suggestions that are fairly weighty and heavy and would change some of the plot and pacing of the book. And really, that’s all I’m doing. It’s up to the author and the publisher, whoever is publishing it, the editor, you know, essentially to decide if they want to take my suggestions and they want to make those edits or if they want to approach it in a different way. But ultimately, that’s all that I’m doing is I’m providing them what I see. And oftentimes I will suggest that they bring other folks in whether it’s an additional sensitivity reader on the same topic because I’m just one person or a sensitivity reader on another topic that I noticed that they might need It is, and providing them with inline feedback as well as a full editorial letter that covers essentially, what I think is working and what could potentially be improved.

 

LB: 

That is so fascinating, I have so many follow up questions, but it would take though, like I’m, like, how I assume that this evolved over time, like, like the skill set. So a couple of things. One is, I’ve learned from you, like, if you’re, if you’re into, if you’re into something, you need to volunteer, and you’re gonna get hired if you do a good job, right, like if you. And then and then this sounds like, and maybe it’s my ignorance, but something that that you have evolved as in a specialty air. I mean, I know, it’s not just you, but but I don’t know, like to train somebody to do that, I think would be superficial, you know, at best, but, um, but anyway, those are just kind of. But I would assume that over time of you doing that kind of work that it has evolved in the kind of feedback that you give, it’s more in depth as when you first started. But maybe that’s just a silly assumption.

 

AL: 

I don’t think it’s a silly assumption. I mean, sensitivity reading is similar to any skill, right? So an editor is going to develop their editorial skills over time a journalist is going to develop their journalism over time, I know for a fact that the pieces that I write now, in my opinion, are better than they were five years ago or seven years ago, I always hope that they’ll improve, because as a creative, you want your work to be improving. I think most people probably feel that way, right? You want your podcast episodes to get better over time. So I would say that, you know, it is something that’s hard to train, it’s but there are probably ways to practice it similar to the ways that, you know, you can take a course on book editing or magazine editing. It’s something that’s challenging to practice. But if you have sample manuscripts, if you have someone who’s willing to lend you, their drafts for you to provide feedback, then you could hone that skill of sensitivity reading, much the same way that someone might hone the skill of editing or, you know, journalism that focuses on media critique, I think that while it’s not required by any means to be a sensitivity reader, it definitely gives you a leg up, if you have an experience, have experience as an editor or even as a media critic, you know, someone who’s reading films, I’m sorry, watching films, or reading novels, or watching television shows with that eye for criticism and looking at, you know, the entire film, then you’re going to be able to hone that sensitivity reading skill, pretty nicely, I think you know it. For practice, I might even suggest like, watch a TV show, or watch any TV show and just choose the type of representation that you’re going to look at, ideally, one that you have lived experience with, right? And see what you notice. See, if you notice over time like that there are ableist assumptions in this show. Is there. Is there queer phobia happening in this show? You know, and, and that’s a good way of potentially honing that skill.

 

LB: 

Yeah, it’s so I mean, this may be, again, it’s silly comparison. But like, because I work in the legal system where I work with people with mental illness, whenever I see the legal system or mentally ill people represented in different genres that you’re discussing, I hone in on a lot of things that I don’t think other people would. So I that’s like, how I’m kind of relating in my brain, how you’re explaining it. What you do to me, like I have that kind of experience just in my own, but but articulating that and giving feedback to somebody is a whole…

 

AL: 

Definitely the same way, I would say that I am not qualified to give legal advice. You know, being someone’s attorney and offering valid legal advice, attuned to their marginalized identity is an amazing and incredible skill set that I have always admired. I admire it and you both I admired and the other attorneys in my life, it’s incredibly valuable. And I think we need more people in all industries that have that I that are willing to actually think about Things like ableism, racism, you know, Islamophobia, anti semitism, like these are things that are really affecting someone’s experience.

 

HM: 

Absolutely. Yeah, and even on that note, something that I wanted to make sure that we inform readers about. So I actually pulled up the diversity and publishing study from a couple of years ago. And for those who really want to know kind of where that state of publishing is, it is very overwhelmingly white, it is overwhelmingly made of cisgender women, it is overwhelmingly straight and overwhelmingly non disabled. That’s kind of just the quick breakdown, there’s some really the numbers definitely back that up. And I, oddly enough, a lot of industries kind of have a very similar story to be told, just the numbers might be even more nuanced and complicated, depending on that. So like legal has the same problems, just it’s not predominantly cisgender women in the same way. But it is historically very white, very straight and very non disabled. So lots of work to be done. And I’m grateful for what you do and what you’ve been sharing to make sure that every person has potentially that ability to feel represented in books, especially young people. I know, this is something we’ve talked about before, and that some of our other guests who are authors have also mentioned is that it’s really important for young people to feel represented to so to that effect. How, excuse me, let me back up a second. What other projects do you have upcoming, it’s really exciting learning more about what you do. And I do not want to speak for Dr. Butts. And I know that sometimes I end up doing this, but I know we’re all grateful to have you and the work that you’re doing.

 

AL: 

Oh, thank you. That’s so sweet. I mean, We Need Diverse Books, as an organization is definitely constantly developing new initiatives that I can really only just tease to say that it’s very important to us as an organization to advocate against things like book banning and censorship. And we’re always evolving as an organization to meet the needs of the publishing industry and readers and authors and illustrators. Me personally, I also teach at Emerson, which I adore, and I really love working with students. So I’m looking forward to teaching some additional classes that are new to my overall course catalog, things that I haven’t taught in the past, looking to be a thesis chair, to more students who are looking for that. I’ve got a few writing projects of my own that again, I know, it’s like asking an author what they’re writing next, like it’s very hush hush, and you have to kind of just tease it, but I’ve got some nice writing pieces in the works. And essentially, you know, I just like to continue in the future. With this kind of work and being able to try to make it easier for marginalized authors to publish their work and have their work championed, I’d like to continue championing that kind of work and championing it for readers, you know it, we are, in a time of so many devastating book bans and soft censorship across the country that have a disproportionate effect on books by marginalized authors and books about marginalized characters. You know, the research from Penn America shows that a vast majority of these books that are being banned are by authors of color or about characters of color. They’re about religious minorities, they’re about LGBTQ plus people. And that has an effect on students and readers, young readers who are reading them. So I hope to be able to continue doing this work and aligning with organizations and other advocates who are still doing this work because it’s a, I think, will always be sort of an uphill battle because as I mentioned, capitalism is woven into everything but I am in it for the long haul. And I really believe that we all need and can really benefit from reading diversely.

 

HM: 

I love that and I’m excited to see what else you’re going to do. So how can our audience keep in touch with you and find out more about your work?

 

AL: 

I am on Instagram @AlainaKeys. And I also am online My website is Alaina Leary. It’s often useful to search me by Alaina Leary because that’s my journalism byline. So all of my written work comes up that way. I’m theoretically on Twitter, but ever since that all went down. I’m not legitimately there. so people can follow me, but they won’t really be getting very many interesting updates, unfortunately.

 

HM: 

All right, so we’ll be sure to check out AlainaLeary.com. Just for those of you who want to make sure that you spell Elena’s name correctly, that is A L A I N A. And I’m looking forward to keeping in touch with you and following all the amazing work that you’re doing to make sure that young readers have access and feel represented actually readers of all ages for that matter. But I do think a lot about young ones, especially as we’re talking about censorship, and book bans, and all of that terrifying stuff going down, we want to also have a little bit of a transition since this is Spectrumly speaking, and we are an autism podcast, somehow, sometimes it doesn’t feel like we are, but we do really take it to heart to have autistic conversations, autistic people, et cetera. So with that, we actually want to talk about the state of autism representation in books. And I know that Elena, both of us have had lots of feelings on this over the years. And also in that note, kind of we’re readers have fallen in helping move us in this correct direction. I’m happy to start off by saying that I know for me autism representation, no matter what kind of media it is always feels kind of nerve wracking for me. It started with the baby sitters club giving a very problematic ablest take when I was a kid, and it’s evolved to even watching things like the good doctor, but I am glad to see more Own Voices in publishing, especially because I think it’s the place that we’re actually moving that needle forward more so than television. But that’s just kind of the first thing that comes to my head.

 

AL: 

Yeah, absolutely. I can’t agree more that I also sort of approach media about autistic characters with a grain of salt and a little bit of unease, because there are so many pieces of media that are so offensive, and so harmful. And actually, you know, a lot of the time the characters that I ended up relating to most, I think, are autistic coded. And that’s just unfortunate, and a lot of ways because I imagine how much more powerful that would be if the characters could just be autistic, you know, if the writers could just give them the freedom to be autistic, to identify as autistic or be diagnosed or whichever, you know, they’re both valid in different ways to just give them that identity and give viewers that identity. But unfortunately, a lot of times, especially in mainstream media, that just doesn’t happen. So I end up relating to characters that have a lot of autistic traits, and to me are autistic in my heart, but unfortunately, are not on the page or on the screen. That being said, I do agree with you that I feel like books are changing the tide in a way. And I think that part of the reason for that is just you know, for one thing, it’s very, very hard in Hollywood. And I think that a lot of disabled screenwriters, disabled actors, you know, disabled folks working in the film industry will tell you that it’s an incredibly ableist industry, there are a lot of really challenging, challenging things at play, like they’re looking for people who can do things that a lot of times, they’re just challenging for someone with a disability. So I think that that may be part of it, you know, it’s, it’s still hard to get into book publishing.

But writers can write from anywhere they can write at any time, you know, theoretically speaking, it can take you as long as it takes you to write a novel. And then you’ve got to kind of find a literary agent or find an editor who’s willing to take a chance on that book. I think that the publishing industry has been moving more quickly, actually, than a lot of other forms of media in terms of that inclusion and an actual focus on publishing autistic voices and autistic characters. So that’s, that may be part of it, that it’s there are just so many barriers to Hollywood and to filmmaking. And I know that there are organizations out there that are fighting those barriers. And I think that that’s wonderful. And I think that they’re they’re doing a lot of the same kind of work that we’re doing it We Need Diverse Books, but they’re just doing it for different types of media, such as TV and film, which is so needed, but I’m very grateful to all of the authors out there who are writing be Beautiful and nuanced and layered and three dimensional autistic characters, I really, I really love that because it’s such a breath of fresh air to finally be able to see a character identifying as autistic. And they’re not just a stereotype, and they’re not the butt of the joke. And they’re not a side character that everybody feels bad for, you know, they, they’re the protagonist, and they’re in charge of their own story and their own destiny, which we so very much need.

 

HM: 

Oh, yes, lots of main character energy. And also, I think my favorite artists, the characters are ones where their autism really isn’t that integral to the story. And I think a lot of authors not not necessarily in the Own Voices category, but they think that the autism is that much more important to the person’s journey, or as a plot device, when it’s fine. If it’s more of just a, it’s their thing. And I always say that, and it’s very human way of just the way that I process things can be different. But I feel like we’re telling human stories, not the after school special on autism stories, which I hope to see less and less.

 

AL: 

Yes, I agree with you there. I think that, you know, it’s obviously it’s very nuanced, because there are, there’s room for those kinds of stories, and there’s a need for some people to see, maybe a diagnosis story, or, you know, from a queer representation, a coming out story, you know, that might be very validating. But for so long, that’s all we’ve had, or that’s the vast majority of what we’ve had is stories on March about marginalized characters that are centered on their identity, they’re so centered on their identity, and something that they have to come to terms with, you know, maybe they have to come to terms with racism, or they have to come to terms with coming out or come to terms with being autistic or disabled in some way. And it’s like you said, I mean, we are so much more than just one identity, I’m more than autistic, I’m more than queer, you know, I’m more than a writer, I’m more than a program manager at a nonprofit, I’m more than a professor, you know, they’re, these are all parts of me, but they’re not the sum of who I am. And I think in some ways, that’s why autistic coded characters end up resonating is because, you know, they are written as these full and complete people who get to have hobbies and passions and flaws. And I just feel like they’re so damn autistic, that I’m like, this is basically on the screen, you know, this is basically page, but they don’t have to center their whole identity around diagnosis and trauma and pain and suffering in the way that so many of those after school specials seem to.

 

HM: 

Yeah, and just as a quick reminder for folks that autistic codes when they’re just basically you have that very, very strong inclination that but they never say it and some of those that I think do it really well. At least for me, the one that I resonated the most with has always been a care. Beth in the Queen’s Gambit, I was trying to remember her name. I think I loved her as an autistic Coda character, because she was so inherently flawed as a person. And it just really worked. Oh, here’s someone who is interested in stuff like fashion who also struggling with mental health and substance use and his passion for something like chess that she has this very singular focus on, and also having some but social difficulties and social nuances and how she interacts with the people she plays with the family in the orphanage. Like all the different things, I was like, this is something that I weird, I don’t have this experience, but I feel like it’s very something I relate to. And I felt even the same way about characters who are also flawed are often misunderstood. So probably the first one that whenever I tell people about autistic coding characters, I tell them about Lilo and Stitch.

 

AL: 

Yes, oh my god Lilo.

 

HM: 

Because I think especially with Lilo and Stitch a lot of people are really quick to write Lilo off as just a bad kid, instead of a kid who’s obviously been through a lot, and to me is very clearly autistic. And is just in the care of an older sibling who does not have that knowledge.

 

AL: 

Yeah, absolutely. I loved Lilo and Stitch as a kid. And I feel like that’s very telling. And I’m not saying everyone who loved Lilo and Stitch as kid is like secretly undiagnosed, if they’re not already aware that they’re autistic, but I just she resonated with me so much, you know, she’s always getting in trouble for things that she didn’t know she was doing or that aren’t wrong, or she doesn’t understand why other people are reacting the way that they do and I felt like her just her reactions to so social situations and her experience with grief was so similar to me. I lost my mom when I was 11. And just like Lilo dealing with that, as an autistic kid, I was like, This is what it looks like to grieve when you’re autistic, it doesn’t look like what people think that it does. And it’s not these like five neat stages of grief. So I love that. And I feel like so often people just really, really resonate with autistic coded characters, and they don’t even know why there isn’t anything.

 

HM: 

I didn’t appreciate Lilo until I was older. That’s probably just where I was in life. And thank you for sharing about your journey as well. And what you’ve been through, I am always grateful when folks who come through Spectrumly are willing to be vulnerable with us and our audience. So I thank you for that. So what do we truly hope things look like? So I know that we’re hoping for less coding, less that fewer after school specials, and I think, honestly the thing that I want more just more messy autistic characters that aren’t perfect that aren’t sidekicks aren’t tech geniuses, I just want more mess. I know that sounds odd to put it that way. But that’s what I enjoy. I enjoy messy characters that aren’t perfect in the fact that they are so deeply flawed, it’s okay. And not just in that like disabled villain trope. But just maybe even more of an antihero than a villain like I like people that are just, you know, very, very human that you’re not like, they’re angels or something else, they’re I just like, mess, I want more mess.

 

AL: 

I agree. I also crave messy autistic characters. And just like you said, characters that are coming at it from a perspective that we maybe hasn’t haven’t seen before, or who breaks the mold of what autistic characters have been allowed to be in the media. You know, when we were talking about all of these autistic coded characters, it just made me think about how many of them, it would have been wonderful for them to just be canonically autistic, in the script, or in the book, you know, one of my favorites, has always been Elle Woods. And I feel like I didn’t realize that Elle Woods from Legally Blonde is so autistic coded until I was older. But I was fully obsessed with that movie when I was younger, when I first saw it. Um, so she’s just very into fashion. And I love that all of her special interests are so feminine, because I think that’s why so many people miss the coding, they miss that she’s got this autism coding, because her special interests are so like societally acceptable, and it’s, it’s seen as so much more normal and acceptable for a young woman, a young, beautiful woman, especially to be obsessed with fashion and to be obsessed with beauty and to be obsessed with that industry. And to be so good at fitting in which I think is her like, you know, trying really hard to fit in and figuring out what the scripts are for those social circles. And it’s so often less, you know, socially acceptable to be like really nerdy about like a very particular subject. And that’s why when we see like, you know, a character who’s obsessed with computers, or trains or something really niche, it’s a lot easier to notice that they’re artistic coded. And I think that we need all types, you know, there are lots of real autistic people who are super nerdy, I’m one of them, and super fashionable, I’m also one of them.

So I really look forward to just so many more characters that have all these layers and nuance. And I also crave anti-heroes You know, I think that many autistic characters, whether they’re canonically autistic or coded that way, are always seen as these like really strong rule followers and there are a lot of stereotypes about autistic people being not empathetic and being very, very much rule followers. You know, these are the people that are going to tell on you if you do something wrong, even if you did it for the right reasons. And, you know, that’s comes from all kinds of people like all kinds of people can be that way autistic people can be that way non autistic people can also be that way. So I also want to See more messy anti heroes and layered, nuanced villains, you know, that aren’t just like a one dimensional cut out who are grappling with these moral decisions and who are doing things that we wouldn’t expect. You know, I think that that is something that I want to see more. And I’d love to see the autistic perspective on a lot of the frustrations that we see in media, we see these frustrations like he or she or they don’t know how to communicate, I can’t get through to them, you know, they, they’re so repetitive or they’re so obsessed with these things like I want to see an autistic person’s perspective on like, how hard it is to communicate with neurotypical people or how hard it is to get them to say what they mean.

 

HM: 

Definitely, and I think that’s such a great thing to have is that we want that full human spectrum of experiences. And I also want to see, our autistic characters is happy at some point to not like fake, social, neurotypical happy, but like, autistic joy, I think something that happens a lot with marginalized groups is our pain gets sent our pain in our struggle gets centered more than anything else. So I would like to see less of that too.

 

AL: 

Right? Yeah, I would also like to see less of that. And I want to see more autistic community and culture in media, you know, going off of what you said about seeing that joy. When I do see that joy in media, a lot of the times what I’m looking at is a character who’s allowed to be themselves and who finally has community, with people who have that shared experience. And I’m not saying you can’t find joy, with non autistic people, you know, I’m not saying that. But there’s a certain kind of joy to being fully seen for who you are, and being celebrated and having someone get it. So I would love to see that I would love to see autistic characters who participate in culture and community and have not just one token autistic character in the show, but like, you know, they actually have friends and family you know, especially since it’s thought to be potentially genetic. So it’s like, why is it always one person in the family and no one gets them in my family like everybody is autistic. Sorry, if you’re watching this guys.

 

HM: 

I feel that in my soul, though. And when you’re talking about community, something that really struck me in autistic media, or autism media, was as much as I rag on the show. Atypical is in one of the seasons, the main character joins a support group. And it’s all autistic actors playing autistic people in the group and the, the support group dynamic, made me want a spin off show of all these people kind of just dealing with the support group because it felt so beautifully autistic and a neurotypical lens show. And I wanted that and I think Sara Luterman who was a past guest of ours to wrote about how they would want to see this as like a spin off as well, like, yeah, I can definitely get behind the support group spin off, like, that would be the show, I’d actually want to watch.

 

AL: 

Right, you’re now making me want to watch Atypical even though I have stayed so far away from it.

 

HM: 

I watched it. And I wanted to stay as far away from it as possible. But it was like the second or third season of it, because I did suffer through every season of it. And there were a couple beautiful scenes with a support group, when the main character gets to college, and I was like, I want the support group to be its own show. I would watch that.

 

LB: 

But it’s interesting. So we talked about earlier that capitalism drives this. And like all of the things that you all have been talking about sound like these rich, great stories that, that people at all people would love to buy. So you know, the more rich the more the more rich the characters are, the more rich stories are you would you would think I’m not in this industry. I’ve no idea. But you would think that that would be a broad ranging thing that people would would that across the board so that you would think that capitalism would drive and there would be a space for that. So I think you guys are sending your requests into the universe, and I hope hopefully, we’ll be rewarded with all of it.

 

HM: 

I hope so. I really would. I don’t know if capitalism would be here for support group show.

 

LB: 

I think so. I think so people want to see how people interact, like, you know, they they love, you know, like, doesn’t matter. I mean…

 

HM: 

I guess. Amazon tried it with the group home thing, but it just didn’t work to me.

 

LB: 

But the obviously this works.

 

HM: 

It’s the right story, and I think it’s having on As the people being the ones who talent not just hiring the actors or just getting someone like Alaina, just to do the sensitivity read that it’s really a bias for everybody’s story, not like a bias for US capital, but a bias for everybody. Especially us. Exactly.

 

LB: 

Exactly. That makes so much sense.

 

AL: 

Yeah, I definitely agree, I think that you can feel that layer of experience, when you’re reading a great book by somebody who is personally autistic, you can feel that they really know what it’s like and have experienced it. That being said, you know, I do think it’s tough, right, because there is so much pressure, I think, on people to be out and proud. And I often use that coming out language because I’m also queer. But coming out as autistic, for some people might be really scary or potentially dangerous in a lot of ways. So, I hold a lot of respect and nuance for the possibility that some of these great representations that are super, in my heart autistic, maybe there was a writer or a director or producer or creator involved, who is undiagnosed or just not able to be publicly autistic in the way that I have chosen to be and have the privilege to be. And, and maybe that’s the reason you know, like, maybe there was an artistic voice in the room writing Legally Blonde or writing Gilmore Girls or writing Lilo and Stitch or writing Bob’s Burgers, you know, like, there’s got to be somebody who’s leaving their mark on it, possibly. So I, I definitely feel that and I hope for a future where more people feel comfortable and feel safe being out and proud about the full spectrum of their identities, hahaha spectrum pawn that I did not intend to throw.

 

HM: 

The most perfect one though.

 

AL: 

But I just hoped for that, you know, I hope for a future where we all feel safer and more comfortable being ourselves. And I know how scary that has been for a lot of marginalized people, especially lately and historically. So I hold a lot of space in my heart for people who are writing these characters who maybe can’t be out and can’t talk about their autistic identity or man might be like undiagnosed. You know, I feel like a lot of people get late in life diagnoses. And I’ve certainly heard of parents finding out that they’re autistic because their child got tested. And then they were like, wait a minute, everything they’re describing is something that I just thought everybody did. And they’re like, Oh, my God, is it me? Am I autistic?

 

HM: 

I have also related to that, too. And I’m so grateful that we’ve had you and for this discussion that ends on this note of hope and really celebrating the joy of our community. So thank you again, Alaina. If you want to follow more of Elena’s work, be sure to visit AlainaLeary.com Or follow on Instagram @AlainaKeys. As for the rest of us, be sure to check out differentbrains.org and check out their Twitter and Instagram DiffBrains. And don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me I can be found at HaleyMoss.com or on all major social media. I’m looking forward to saying hello to you.

 

LB: 

I can be found at CFIexperts.com Please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes and don’t hesitate to send questions to Spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going.

Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.