Clinical psychologist, autism self-advocate, and educational consultant Dr. Eric Endlich shares tips for students transition from high school to college.
About our guest: Eric Endlich, Ph.D., clinical psychologist and founder of Top College Consultants®, manages a diverse, nationwide team of college admissions professionals helping neurodivergent students transition to higher education. He co-teaches the UC Irvine continuing education course for educational consultants, Working with Students with Learning Differences, and co-manages a 27,000-member Facebook group for parents of college-bound neurodivergent students. Dr. Endlich has served on the board and the Learning Differences/Neurodiversity Committee of the Independent Educational Consultants Association (IECA), and was honored with IECA’s “Making a Difference” award for contributions such as a database of neurodiversity-friendly colleges. A keynote speaker, researcher and professional writer, he is also on the board of the College Autism Network and helped found the Neurodiverse Couples Institute for the Association for Autism and Neurodiversity. Dr. Endlich is regularly interviewed by various media including Forbes, Money magazine, and U.S. News & World Report. Finally, he is a neurodivergent parent and adult himself.
For more about Eric’s work, visit: www.topcollegeconsultants.com
For more about host Bea Moise, visit: beatricemoise.com
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Note: the following transcription was automatically generated. Some imperfections may exist.
BEA MOISE (BM):
Hello and welcome to Exploring Different Brains. I am Bea Moise, and I’ll be your host today, and I’m excited to welcome my guest. Dr, Eric Endlich, welcome Eric. How are you good?
DR ERIC ENDLICH (EE):
Hi Bea. How are you?
BM:
I am, well, I am, well, well, Eric, how about you reintroduce yourself to our audience?
EE:
Sure. Yeah. Dr, Eric Endlich, I’m a psychologist and founder of Top College Consultants. I manage a team of educational consultants around the US, helping neurodivergent students apply and transition to college and grad school. I’m also a parent of neurodivergent kids, and I’m neurodivergent myself. So 360 degree view.
BM:
I love that you have the parental view, you have the personal view, and then you have the professional view. And you and I, we’ve had a previous conversation before this, so I love speaking to you, so I’m going to even love interviewing you. Likewise, yeah, because we had, we hit it off, and I think it’s just all the different commonalities that we share. So one of something that we both share is one of your biggest focus is in the neurodivergent population, people transitioning out of high school and into college. So can you talk a bit more about the difficulties that you are seeing arise from you know, the those young people, that population, exactly sure.
EE:
You know, there’s a bunch of challenges transitioning to college, or what people in some countries call University, is a big transition for anybody. If you’ve never lived away from home, if we’re talking about moving away to a four year college or university, living away from your parents or guardians, that’s a big deal for any child, but if you’re neurodivergent and you’ve got some other challenges, then it tends to be even more of a big deal for a number of reasons, one of them being the need if you need certain kinds of support that may or may not be available at all colleges. So sort of figuring out which colleges are going to give me the support I need, whether it’s academic, social, emotional, independent living skills, and developing the skills to be successful in college, which is much more than just being able to access the curriculum or handle the courses. It also involves being able to self advocate for help when you need it, and other things. So those are just a couple of examples.
BM:
Which, out of all of those that you just shared, I mean, I’ve noticed that advocacy, especially for you know, the clients that I see, you know, the college age students that I see, they’ve had so much hand holding right throughout their undergrad years, of, I mean, undergrad, throughout their early education, of parents really fostering a lot of I’ll do this. I’ll schedule the IEP. I’ll do the 504 like, which one do you see as the biggest hindrance for progress from your perspective, as you know, as you help these individuals transition, I’m guessing advocacy, but this pure guess.
EE:
Yeah, well, that’s definitely a big part of it. And it’s not just the the child. It’s the parents too. So parents or guardians, you know, I’m a Special Needs parent as well, as I said, and so I completely understand you’re used to being on the front lines, you know, helping your child, advocating for your child, making sure they get their rights and their needs met. And so that shift to college things kind of flip the parent you know, Child’s moving away from home, parents aren’t going with them. And colleges treat treat students very differently from the system. In the K through 12 world, there’s different laws that apply in up until college. It’s the school district’s responsibility to identify students who have disabilities to serve them, to deliver the services they need to be successful. That is on the school district. And of course, parents play a huge role in that too, and that kind of flips in college, where it’s really the responsibility of the student to disclose that they have a disability, to pursue accommodations and services if they need them, and as you said, self advocate. So that means a parent now has to kind of move to the back seat. You know, they’re not driving the bus anymore, and if they’re not, kind of parents and students aren’t ready for that shift, it could be a very bumpy ride.
BM:
Interesting, I figured that, but it’s, it’s great to hear your insight. It’s great to hear you, you know, really give that perspective, because you’re, you’re dealing with it and you’re seeing it more frequently. What are some tools you’ve come across that can help navigate this transition? Like, what have you seen to be very successful in terms of tools?
EE:
Well, you know, be maybe to step back prior to self advocacy, you have to, you have to have self awareness. Oh, right. So you have to know, you have to know that you need help. You have to know what you don’t know, right? If you need help with time management, let’s say which is a big, the big part of what’s different in college is that you got a lot of unstructured time, and you the student, have to think about, oh, I have an assignment that’s not due for two weeks, and I can see it on the syllabus that the professor gave out at the beginning of the term, but it’s completely on me to figure out how to get That paper written or to study for that final or to read all those pages because there’s there isn’t a parent or an instructor saying, hey, remember to do such and such. So if you struggle with something like time management, you need to know that about yourself so that you would then figure out a system. Maybe that’s meeting with an academic or executive function coach. Maybe that’s putting up a whiteboard, which is what one of my kids did in high school. Maybe it’s, you know, putting apps on your phone. You know, same thing goes to other areas of your life. If you know that you have a tendency to slip into depression or anxiety, you need to know what are the things that are going to help prevent that or manage it if it does start to happen? So that self awareness is really key. And then knowing where do I get help if I need it, and am I ready to step up and ask for help?
BM:
That’s a great point. You need to know you need help, and then you need to get the help, because without the knowing you cannot get it. I think that is such a fascinating point, because something I’ve come across, you know, as an ADHD coach when I am dealing with, you know, college students and graduate level students and individuals who weren’t really aware of the level of how badly they needed help, right? Because, like you said, and you made a beautiful point about, you know, the K through 12, they really do put all this resource into families, and even if the resources are lacking, it is nothing in comparison to when you get to the college level, right? Like it doesn’t compare, because now it’s, well, if you want this help, it’s here, but we’re not going to, like, shove it down your throat or make it as accommodating as possible, depending on the place. So I think that’s a fascinating perspective of they need to know that their need of this. And I do see that sometimes parents do such a great job, you know, managing it that these kids now get in this environment and they’re lost because they’re like, No, I’m I get straight A’s and I study the night before and and I turn it in. And they didn’t know that the parents was emailing the teacher to make sure the assignment was turned in and to give them extra time, and, you know, all the different stuff. So what percentage, or even if you could give me a number, or just kind of an idea of how many of those students did not know, like, didn’t have a recognition of how badly, you know, they needed this, or if they were even neurodivergent themselves. Like, have you come across a, you know?
EE:
Yeah, I don’t know about a number. I would say it’s kind of a range where, you know, we have some students who are pretty self aware. And one of the things I ask kids when I first meet them is, you know, what supports or accommodations are you getting now in high school, if it’s a high school student, I also work with students applying to grad school. But you know, what accommodations are you getting that you find helpful? What do you actually use? Not just what’s on your IEP, but what are you actually using and benefiting from? And some kids I work with are very clear on that. They say, you know that resource room and that resource teacher is super helpful. Having extra time on tests is really helpful. Having extra time on assignments is helpful. Unfortunately, that tends to go away in college, so that’s another tricky thing. And then there’s other kids who are more maybe in denial, you might say, or like, oh, I don’t think I yeah, I’ve got an IEP, but I don’t really think I’m going to I need that, and I’m not going to need anything special in college, when the parents might know, yeah, if it weren’t for all the stuff we, the parents and teachers are doing to keep you afloat, as you said, Be you would be sinking, you know, because the parent may be waking them up in the morning and making. Or they put their homework in their backpack and that they eat before they leave, and a million other things that are somewhat behind the scenes that everyone sort of takes for granted. The student may not realize, like all this scaffolding is a kind of drop away when I go to college, and that’s why it’s important to have it be a gradual process of transferring to the student, to not just say, you know, as the student or parent, let’s cross our fingers and hope everything works out in college, but how are we going to make sure that our kid is college ready? And there’s a lot of pieces to that process. It could be taking a gap year to build those skills. It could be the parent shifting that responsibility gradually. I’m going to show you how to do laundry. I’m going to show you how to make an appointment with your therapist. So there’s, there’s lots of ways that can happen, but it needs to happen, or it’s going to go off the rails pretty quickly.
BM:
That’s I love, that I have. I have two questions tied together, because you said gap year and that trigger, I’m like, oh, that’s that’s a great point. So my first question is, is there any preparation you think a neurodivergent high school student should do before they graduate? And the second part to that question is, what are your thoughts of a neurodivergent student taking a gap year? Because I do think that gap year is that extra little that they need and could use to really prepare them to succeed. But most parents, you know, you graduate high school and you go to college, as I did, as maybe you did immediately, you know, you just kind of go, you do? You don’t stop, you don’t pause. So then it could feel, Oh, that’s a failure. They’re not going to the next thing. What am I doing? So, you know, two questions into one.
EE:
Two questions at once. Let me see if I can tackle that. So the first one was, what could the students be doing? It’s a long list. Again, it is sort of building that figuring out together parents or caretakers and child, what are all the things that other people are doing and how is that going to be managed in in college, like if, if parents are getting the kids up or doing their laundry or making their appointments, or, you know, as you said, calling the teachers at school, emailing the teachers. How is that going to play out in in college? And of course, I’m not suggesting like kids have to arrive at college with everything figured out and mastered. Any more than neurotypical students do? We all kind of flounder our way through life, but they could have somebody like you when they’re in college to keep working on these skills, as opposed to being like, well, I’ll just go to college and figure it out. It’ll all just, I’m sure it’ll be fine. Hey, other kids go to college and they manage, but to kind of know, you know, I struggle again, like, say, with time management, so I’m going to be sure to have a coach in place to keep me on task, to help me keep building those skills. Which leads to the topic of gap year. And of course, you know, my first answer was not exhaustive, but we only have limited time here, so the gap year. I mean, I think probably most students could benefit from a gap year. I think that’s there’s potential for for any student to benefit. I wrote an article on the six benefits of a gap year, but some students need it more than others, and sometimes the parents are pretty clear, yeah, my kid is is smart. They’re getting good grades, but no way are they ready for college. So we need to buy ourselves another year before we get there. Sometimes the students are clear on that too. Sometimes they’re not. Sometimes it’s a process that happens over time where we just sort of keep it in the conversation. Well, let’s revisit that later, see where you’re at. You know, later on in senior year, because they really don’t have to make that decision until very late in the game. We can talk about it at any point. But if you’re still really struggling in certain areas a lot, whether it’s academically, executive function, socially, emotionally independent living skills, why not buy yourself some more time build up those skills so that when you get to college, you it’s it’s not going to be such a struggle. You know, the nationwide, only about 60% of kids who start college graduate after six years, not four years. So there’s a big chunk of students, not just neuro divergent students, who are not getting through, never mind, four years, even after six years, there’s lots of reasons. Some of it can be financial, obviously, but for students with disabilities, the rates of the. Not graduating unfortunately or even higher. So why not increase your your chances of success? And a gap year is one way to do that.
BM:
I think that is such a wonderful point. I want to read the six benefits. So we will definitely link that, because I think it’s such a I think it’s such a profound idea that we don’t utilize as much as we could. Usually, depending on when I meet with the family, when I’m doing parent coaching, if I meet them when they’re little, I try to sell TK and pre k, right? It’s like, I’m always trying to sell more time, like, Hey, let them do TK instead of doing K, you know? And when I meet them later on, and I’m like, you know, a gap year can be a really good time to discover who you are, to learn. It’s not a year of nothing, it’s a year of growing, right? Because your brain isn’t relaxing at that time, it’s still growing. And for what we know about the developing brain, they have time, they’re still very much young. So for me, I think a gap year such a wonderful perspective that I don’t think parents really take ownership of as a possible option. Yeah, more of a failure, right? And I think absolutely yeah. And I think just highlighting it and saying it’s not a failure. It’s just an additional tool I’m using.
EE:
I was talking about skill building, but I want to underscore two points you made. One is, it’s another year of brain development, and not everybody realizes your brain is still developing well into your 20s, past the age that a lot of kids have already graduated from college, your brain is still developing, which is why you know the stereotypes of all the crazy things that teens and and 20 somethings get into, because you haven’t developed it in certain ways cognitively. And so another year of brain development is really going to help you be more mature and successful in college, and the second thing you were talking about self discovery. So some of the kids I work with know exactly what they want to do. You know, I have a student who not only knows she wants to be a veterinarian, but she knows what type of veterinarian she wants to be. I have two kids this year who not only want to be architects, they’ve known this for most of their lives, that they want to be architects. So some kids go to college like I know exactly what I want to study. I know where I’m going in life, but a lot of my students don’t know. They know they want to go to college. They want to study something. Maybe they’ve narrowed it down to stem or humanities, but could be history, could be poli sci, could be economics, that gap year could help them really focus, so that when they get to college, they are more laser focused. Not that you have to be in the US. You can have a major and a minor or a double major, unlike some other countries. But still, you know, I wish I had known more when I went to college about all the options open to me, I probably would have picked a different major and so on.
BM:
That makes, that makes perfect sense, and I’m glad that you brought that up, because I think it’s such a I think it’s a tool that we’re just not using, and I think it’s a tool that parents don’t know is a good thing, not a bad thing, not a shame thing, not a failure thing. It’s just another way. So if I am a neurodivergent student in 2025 and I’ve just been accepted to college, what should I do to get ready? Like, what am I to do to make sure I have the support? Like, what? Because you know, if you and I are talking about when we graduated, it’s different, right? And each year it changes. So in 2025 or even 2024 What did that look like, and what does it look like now?
EE:
Yeah, well, I mean, I hope back in the college search process, you’re looking as a family, you’re looking at which colleges offer the supports that your child is going to need, and we’ve created a free database on our website where you can find the programs, the colleges that have additional supports. So I hope that you’re looking at that when you’re choosing colleges in the first place. But back to your question, we know you’ve been accepted to college. You know, if you’ve been accepted several colleges, choose the one that’s that’s going to where you’re going to thrive, which is not just a matter of choosing the one that has the most famous name. But think about, you know what? What accommodations you will need in college. So you have a list of accommodations you’ve had in high school. Do you need all the same accommodations? Are there additional accommodations you might need, and this could be a a dialog you have with the disability services office in college. Because interestingly, there might be some things that go away, like I said, extra time on assignments tends to disappear in college, but there may be a bunch of things available in college that weren’t available in high school. Mm. Like certain kinds of assistive technology that your high school just didn’t have at the school that the college, with its larger enrollment and larger budget has has is able to afford or note takers in the classroom. So you know, think about all the kinds of accommodations you need to be successful. Have that dialog with disability services before you set foot on campus as a first year student. Don’t wait until you’ve started school, because you’re going to be hit with assignments and meeting new people and, you know, figuring out where to do laundry and go to the gym and a million other things get get all that stuff in place so you can kind of hit the ground running. That’s one piece of it, you know, think about if you struggle with certain things, let’s say, making friends. Okay, what are you going to do about that? Are you just going to hang out in your room and not make friends? Or is there a club of people with similar interests where it might be easier to make friends, and if you’re shy about going to a club, can you, you know, rope somebody into going with you. Some support programs have peer mentors who will do that with you. You know, it might be an upperclassman who will come with you to the, you know, the anime club or the frisbee golf club or whatever to, you know, to make friends.
BM:
Those are some interesting perspective into like, okay, what can you do? What are some options that you have? It’s 2025, I love that you said the anime club, because the amount of my students that are like a huge fan of anime. So if there’s a club for that, I would love to learn more.
EE:
Yeah, and you know, as they say in high school too, if there isn’t a club for your interest, you can start one. And kids absolutely do this. Kids start neurodiversity clubs in college. There are some in in some colleges. But if there isn’t one, and you are a student who’s a real neurodiversity advocate, start one at your college. There will be other students who want to join you.
BM:
I think that’s such a beautiful idea, because I think about the amount of kids that I know they’ve always struggled with friendships, they’ve always struggled with, you know, the social circle just being a little bit more difficult to navigate. So the idea of, listen, this is now a bigger pool where you can create your own, right. You may not be the sorority person or you may not be the fraternity person, but you can create your own. And obviously I’m thinking, you know, 19 is it 1980s or 90s movies of like, you can create your own. I can’t right now, but it’s like passing in my head. But you can make your own neurodiversity club, and whether that’s anime or Legos or Pokemon or Marvel or whatever it is. So I think that’s kind I think that’s a beautiful idea to that’s one way when parents are thinking about, okay, my child now has been accepted. They’re going to college, they’re going away, or they’re staying local, whatever it may be. What advice would you give to parents in supporting that transition from, you know, home to college, like, how do you what advice would you give them?
EE:
Well, it’s a big topic. But, you know, I would say you want to support, of course, but not suffocate. Don’t, don’t hover. You know, you can take your child’s lead to some extent. If they don’t want to call you or text you every single day, that’s okay. That may be me, a sign that they’re doing great. You know, when, when our daughter went off to college, she was making friends within 24 hours, and we were so happy. And, you know, of course, we would have loved to, like, talk to her every day and text her, you know, non stop, you know, what’d you do today? But we also wanted to give her space to find her place. So, you know, be there for your child as they need and and, but if they need to talk to a counselor, you don’t have to be that person. You don’t have to be every everything. If you’re concerned your child is, you know, falling back into depression or addictions or whatever they’re vulnerable to, you can direct them to the professional resources and that that kind of goes back to your previous question about the you know, what can, what can student do to prepare they need to have a plan for whatever challenge they are likely to encounter. And I’m sure you could talk a lot about the time management side, like, Do you have a plan for studying? Do you know how you’re going to be sure to have the right study conditions? How you’re going to manage your time, given that, you know, you won’t have the oversight that you had in high school. But the same goes for emotional stuff too, which, you know, as a former therapist, I’m pretty comfortable talking to folks about, you know, having a plan in place for that, and. And also everyone in the family should realize that homesickness is normal and stress associated with change is normal too. So if the kids freaking out, kids feeling homesick or anxious or overwhelmed because everything is new and different, and that’s totally normal, and that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be in college, or that they should move home. A lot of that will sort itself out. And again, there’s so many resources in college to help you. The trick is going to the people there, whether it’s the RA in the residence hall, your roommate, your professor, whoever, to say, you know, man, how, how am I supposed to navigate this?
BM:
Yeah, I think something I’ve like to teach parents, which is, it’s hard to do when the child is currently living with you, but around 11th and, you know, latest 12th grade, but really around 11th grade and as early as even tail end of middle school, I say you have to start to transition yourself from parenting to consultant, right? Like you have to understand what that transition can look like. And, you know, I have a middle schooler and I have a ninth grader, and it’s that transition of, I don’t need to make your appointments, I don’t need to call for this. I don’t need to do that like, it’s your schedule. You’re in charge of it. You know what it looks like. You can handle it. And I have two neurodivergent children, so, and I know the panic and the fear, you know, especially with my daughter, who’s anxious, where I’m like, you can make your own appointment, and it’s but I’m 13, right? You know? And it’s this immediate fear. And as a parent, I’m like, forget it. I’ll do it. I’ll do it. I can do it. I can I can make an appointment for you, but it’s that parenting transition of I want to see you succeed at this while you’re still here, because I’ll feel a lot more anxiety, you know, less anxiety about it when you’re not here. And maybe that’s just me trying to control my future anxiety, I don’t know.
EE:
And both of you, the parent and the and the child, may be anxious in that situation where the child’s like, Oh, you’re going to make me do this. I’m not ready for it. The parent may be thinking like, well, if I do give this to my child, what if they screw it up? What if they you know, they forget to make their appointment, they forget to show up for their appointment. But you kind of have to tolerate a certain amount of anxiety that is part of being successful in life and and realizing you know the anxiety will pass, and if your child can master that, it’s going to make her or him feel so much better because of that and that, you know, I remember when, when our daughter was going off to college, my wife and I sat down with her and had a conversation with her about finances and about, you know, you’re going to need money for spending money in college. And kind of talking to her about how much money she was going to possibly need. And, and she said to us, like, Oh, I’m not really comfortable taking money from you, because I’ve been working since I was 14 and, and I’ve been, you know, managing my own money. And that moment, I felt like, man, we have really succeeded. Like I was a real high point for me as a parent. Like it is a parenting gold star moment, she she actually is pushing back on us doing more for her.
BM:
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s definitely, I hope that’s my story that is definitely a parenting gold star moment. I think definitely that transition. Now I have a little again. I have these point A and point B questions, second that, you know, I have been in the space of parent coaching for over 15 years, and I have seen a transition and change in terms of parents. Now, have you seen a growth or a decrease in parenting discomfort? For you know, the amount of discomfort that a parent can sit in. Have you seen it be and again, as a therapist too, because in the past, you you would have to deal with, you know, different personalities and perspective. Because I have noticed that there’s been more of a increase in I don’t want my child to feel this, whether that is discomfort, unhappiness or pain, whatever it may be. So then we do all these different things, and then the child get to this environment, and now they’re really uncomfortable, because now they’ve never felt any of these things at all. Have you seen at all a change?
EE:
I think it’s, it’s a society wide change that has happened over a long period of time over decades, you know. And my peers and I are, you know, always saying, Man, when I was a kid, you know, when I was growing up, we would go out all day long, and our parents couldn’t reach us because we didn’t have cell phones. Like, I’m that old, you know, we didn’t have cell phones. We would just go out all day hanging, you know. Riding bikes, whatever, our parents couldn’t reach us. Our parents didn’t worry about it, and not was just, you know, things that are so different today. So I think part of is because of technology, because you can always be texting your kid. Did you get to your friend’s house yet? You know, have you the accessibility of that? I think that makes it easier to hover, as opposed to, if your kids gone out and, you know, they’re hiking around or whatever, biking around with their friends, pre cell phone, you just had to be like, Yeah, they’ll, they’ll be home for dinner. And it is what it is. So I think the technology has kind of been one impact on that. I think the pandemic hugely accelerated it too, because kids were, you know, less independent. They were sitting home and doing zoom school, instead of going out there making friends and having to cope with schoolyard bullies and develop all these social skills at school. So I think that kind of set the clock back too in terms of independence and in terms of kids feeling confident and and so, yeah, anxiety has increased on on both sides. And so you’re a parent, and you know, you texted your kid, where are you? In a 20 minutes went by, they didn’t respond. You might, you know, get anxious in a way that just simply wasn’t the case before, and even when cell phones first came out, you know, 789, 10 year olds didn’t have them, right? So now it’s like everybody has them.
BM:
Right. Well, that’s it. That’s an interesting perspective, because technology has definitely changed the way that we interact, the way we communicate. A lot of it is fantastic and great. Some of it is really harmful and damaging. So it’s about that balance. Do you see, or have you seen our education system? How are they navigating that right? Like, how is the what is the education system doing to help neurodivergent student who may struggle with some time management, you know, struggle with the hovering parent, where maybe they think, you know, their mom can email the professor and kind of handle it for them. Or how are they handling, you know, just technology, or even any type of neurodivergent, you know, thing that impacts us differently, because technology does not have the same effect on the neurodivergent brain as it does on the neurotypical because it just exacerbates what we’re already struggling with, right? So have you seen the education system try and offer any type of support for that or anything?
EE:
Well, I think those of us who go into education field, whether it’s K through 12, higher education consultants, coaches, we’re we’re all dedicated to helping kids succeed. We all want the same thing, whether you’re working in a high school or college or independent like me. So individually, I think people and programs are trying to serve students. I think structurally, in terms of the whole field, you know, institutions change slowly, and you know, has, has the country kept up with the changes brought on by AI? I think we’re way behind the curve as a country. Individually, there are people who know what’s going on with AI, but large institutions, and that includes colleges, move slowly. There’s certainly a bunch of colleges, again, I have a database of them that are providing additional services to students. I think, particularly since the pandemic, colleges have stepped up in terms of providing mental health services, because they just have to. If they don’t, bad things will happen at the you know, best case scenario, kids dropping out and moving back home because they got depressed. Yeah, so, so I think we do see kind of services ramping up. I’m on the board of the college Autism Network, and one of the things we’re working on, I’m not in on this subcommittee, personally, but is this idea of an autism friendly College. In Ireland, there’s a charity called as I am, that developed this template, this sort of plan for how colleges or universities can become more welcoming and inclusive as a whole, and we’re trying to replicate that in the US, so that it’s not just about putting the burden on the student to advocate for services, but creating an institution that is so inclusive and welcoming that Students don’t have to have the burden on them so much, you know, in the same way that if you put ramps and elevators so that all buildings are accessible to people who are using wheelchairs, then you don’t have to have people in wheelchairs saying, you know, hey, can you help me? You know, get up the stairs or get up the curb. Yeah. So I think that, you know, universal design and inclusiveness is huge, not just for students with disabilities, but for all marginalized groups. Unfortunately, we’re at this weird point in in history where we might be moving backwards in terms of inclusiveness, but hopefully that will, over the long term, continue to move in the right direction.
BM:
So what would you like to see change in the education system? I hear the definitely more of you know, some places do it better, like America does it better in certain things, and we’re not so great in other things. You know, it’s always not every place can do the exact same thing at the top rate, at the best level. Everyone has their own particular niche of how we can be inclusive. But overall, if you could name like one or two particular change in the education system that would help neurodivergent students, and not just the ones that you know can advocate for themselves and ask and request, but just in general, or even the ones who don’t even know like what, what are, what is one thing or two things that you would like to see different in the education system?
EE:
Yeah, well, I kind of hinted at it a moment ago. One thing we didn’t really talk about is that most students with disabilities who go off to college don’t disclose their disability. Most students are not getting accommodations because they haven’t disclosed that for any number of reasons, whether they don’t understand how to or they found it too onerous to do so, or they they’re worried about stigma. So there’s a lot of students out there who aren’t getting supports, services and accommodations that could benefit them. And again, I think the Universal Design for Learning UDL, kind of makes all of that unnecessary. If you provide an inclusive environment, then you don’t put the burden on students to disclose and self advocate. I was at an event in Arizona earlier this year, and a professor said to me, a professor who’s at one of the local universities, she said, I use universal design for learning and for example, extra time on tests is not something that students have to ask for, because my students get as much time as they need. It’s just there. So it’s the extra time is there for everyone they take as much time as they need, so that that student doesn’t have to say, Excuse me, but I’m entitled extra time. And by the way, you know I was talking about the barriers I there’s students who do advocate in college and have professors tell them, No, you know, no, you can’t record my lecture. No, you can’t bring a laptop to class, even though you’ve got you’ve got it in writing, that you have a right to that. So when you create an inclusive environment which professors can help create then, then all of that pressure on the student kind of goes away.
BM:
Yeah, no, I love that, because if it’s there, you don’t have to ask for it, you know? And because not everyone have the ability to advocate or ask or request or want, sometimes they just don’t know. Again, you don’t know what you don’t know, right? You have no idea what’s missing or what could be done better or differently, because you may, you may not, have a good insight into how much you’re struggling. So then you again, you cannot ask, I think, having a universally designed education system that fit the needs for all, and not just some. Because, you know, I don’t know if you have heard of Life College, you know, and it’s basically, they’re like these programs in a university that tailor to usually intellectually disabled.
EE:
Like think fifth ones listed by Think College, yeah, yeah, but then Clemson Life…
BM:
Yeah, Clemson life. So there’s that, but that’s specific to a population, right? What if it’s someone like myself or you, who you know my ADHD, sometimes I do have time magnoxia. I completely don’t feel time. I feel like we’ve been chatting for 20 seconds because it’s enjoyable to me, and I don’t feel it, you know. So I do require certain time management tools that I’ve utilized in the past and I use in the present to help me manage that. So I’m not a candidate for that program, but, you know, an assignment may slip my mind. You know, the way that I did undergrad and grad school was I overdid basically. That’s just how I survived it. I said, you know, it can’t be late if it’s early. That was, that was my motto. It. Procrastination? Yeah, it can’t be late if it’s early. Yeah, I would do everything weeks ahead of time, submit it and just be done with it. Until I forgot which practicum it was where that I couldn’t do that anymore, right? It was due. The assignment was given that same week. It was doing the same week, and I didn’t have another tool for that, right? Because I I can’t submit it early, and a week is not enough time. So if it was already included, it would have felt different.
EE:
Yeah, but you had that self awareness to know, because this is something I struggle with, I’m going to get out ahead of it. Instead of waiting for it to come back and bite me,
BM:
Yes, would have been very upsetting to my mom.
EE:
Whereas, I think a lot of kids, they, you know, arrive in college, and as one of my colleagues just said yesterday, you know, there’s, like, all this shiny new stuff, you know, there’s parties, there’s, you know, there’s places on campus you can eat 24 hours a day. There’s like, so, you know, people hanging out late in the in the residence halls, chatting or doing whatever. It’s pretty easy to get take your eye off the ball, right? I mean, think, oh, that assignments not due for weeks. I’m not going to think about that when my friends are going out and having fun.
BM:
Right, right, right, especially if you have an impulse control issue, and everything is, you know, most college town, everything is within walking distance. It’s done intentionally.
EE:
And then on top of that, as you as you alluded to earlier, if you in in high school, if you got by by doing everything the night before. You may think you can still do that, and if you’re especially if you’re smart, in some ways, it’s worse if you’re smart, yes, yes, because you can pull it off. You can do it the night before and still get a decent grade, right? But in college, if it’s hundreds of pages of reading or a 20 page paper, it probably can’t pull that off the night before,
BM:
Right? And I think college students also forget you had a curfew. You know, at the end of the day, you were home by a time. I don’t know what that time is, but you were home when you’re in college. There is no curfew. It’s only whatever you decided to do.
EE:
And even if you were that kid who was doing it the night before, maybe you were doing it because your parents were kind of sitting on you and saying, Excuse me, we know that the math test is tomorrow. So you know, turn off the music and start studying.
BM:
Well, Eric, I have to say I can talk to you forever, but I do want to respect your time, as I’ve demonstrated. I do have time magnosia, I do have a problem.
EE:
Well, you probably have a timer in front of you or something.
BM:
I do and the timer saying, Stop talking. Stop talking.
EE:
I’m relying on you to do this.
BM:
So how can people learn more about you and the wonderful work that you’re doing.
EE:
Well, go to topcollegeconsultants.com we’re on social media too. I co manage a Facebook group of 27,000 parents of college bound neurodivergent students. You know, you can reach out to me at Eric E R I C at top college consultants.com and I can give you the link to our Facebook group. You can also find it on the website, we give out lots of free resources. We understand not all families have the money to or choose to hire a consultant. So lots of free podcasts, webinars, blog posts, you name it.
BM:
I know that on LinkedIn, you are wonderful with sharing resources. You are my favorite person to share, to see because you give information. I’m like, Oh my gosh, this is so great. Yes, yeah. So thank you for that, Eric, it’s been so great speaking with you today. Thank you everything that you’re doing in this community, our community, you’re a wonderful human for doing so. So thank you. Thank you.
EE:
Always a pleasure talking with you, Bea.
