Autism & Developmental Therapy, with Dr. Jennie Trocchio | EDB 315
Dr. Jennie Trocchio shares how developmental therapy can help autistic individuals, and how it differs from behavioral methods.
Dr. Jennie Trocchio is an autism educator, speaker, Developmental Therapist, and Vice President of Clinical Operations at Positive Development. Positive Development’s mission is to “…help people with autism and other developmental differences build connections and shape their futures.” Positive Development follows the Developmental Relationship-Based Intervention (DRBI) model.
Jennie is a Maryland native located in sunny South Florida. With a Bachelor’s from University of Miami in Special Education and Creative Writing and a Master’s in Exceptional Student Education and Reading, Jennie worked in special education in Miami-Dade County Public Schools. During this time she developed a focus on autism and was introduced to DIR/Floortime approach. This model was put into practice at CasaBlanca Academy, a non-profit school for students with autism, where Jennie became the lead teacher, Director of Education and later the President of the Board of Directors. She is certified in DIR/Floortime, PLAY Project and Teaching PLAY.
For more about Jennie’s work:
https://www.positivedevelopment.com/
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Note: the following transcription was automatically generated. Some imperfections may exist.
DR HACKIE REITMAN (HR):
Hi, I’m Dr. Hackie Reitman. Welcome to another episode of Exploring Different Brains. And today we have the pleasure of welcoming back our friend, Dr. Jennie Trocchio. Who is the Vice President of Operations for… tell us:
DR JENNIE TROCCHIO (JT):
For Positive Development.
HR:
And tell us what is Positive Development?
JT:
Sure, Positive Development is an autism therapy organization, we have about 13 centers throughout the country. And what’s really exciting is that we offer a developmental approach to autism therapy. And, and that’s pretty huge, because to date, and you know, I’ve had the opportunity to be here many times talking about the benefits of developmental therapy. But now, thanks to positive development, it’s getting covered by insurance. So it’s actually an option for all families to be able to access.
HR:
Wonderful, it’s getting covered by insurance, you’re brand branching out all over America, you have a senior vice president, and tell us the approach why it’s so unique and so different.
JT:
So a developmental approach is very different from traditional approaches, which are usually you know, adult lead, very directive thing, do this, and then I’ll give you this, so sort of a reward consequence, situation in developmental therapy, it is not adult LED. So first of all, that’s the first difference is we let the child take the lead. And by taking a moment and just noticing what is the child interested in, in this moment, we go from there and try to build on interactions. And the interaction should be fun, should be playful. And from there, we can really think about, okay, what’s going on in this child’s development? Where are they developmentally, we can also think about what are they taking in in terms of their sensory processing system, their motor system, their visual system, language, system, auditory system, and then connect, and really, the magic is in connecting. And so once we connect, we can start to build up that developmental ladder. And that’s where the real magic happens.
HR:
So under the parent, let’s say, hypothetically, I’m the parent, and I have a child and the child’s different, not quite sure what it is, what’s the difference? So I ended up going to a neuro developmental psychologist, and they say, Your child has autism. So I bring my child with autism to you. And what do you tell me?
JT:
So I tell you, I’m excited to see you. I tell you, I’m excited to start this journey with you. And so then we do start with a parent interview. So we find out a little bit about that parents journey, that families journey, we have interactions with the child and the family, we really believe that the family needs to be the parents need to be part of the font, and they need to be part of all of it. Because if we just go in and you know, have a one hour session, doesn’t matter how effective it is, if all the progress ends when that session ends, then we won’t get the carryover. So we’ll do an evaluation to figure out exactly what the child’s needs are. And then we’ll get sessions started, which could include parent support. So parent coaching, parent education, occupational therapy, speech therapy, mental health therapy. And then we also have something that we call DCC time, which is developmental client coach time, who’s essentially a trained play partner, who gets to go in the home and gets to work with the child, they are in the natural environment. And ideally, we want parents to be part of as many of the sessions as they can be. Knowing that also, every parent needs a break sometimes, and that is very, very valid. But we also want them to be part of the process and learn with us, and help inform you know, what, what do you see at home? Or what are you working on at home, so that way we can really be on the same page.
HR:
You know, that like we know, here, a Different Brains: every brain is different. And every child is different. How do you develop a standard method?
JT:
That is a very good question. And that is a very good question. And there’s nothing cookie cutter about autism, and there’s nothing cookie cutter about our approach. You can’t just pull out a recipe book that says you start here, do this, this this and then we’ll Allah it will be amazing. Sort of our starting point is to observe interactions and what is the child interested in? What do they enjoy in this moment? How are they processing the world? And that sort of informs how we interact with them.
HR:
And the developmental approach is what you call it?
JT:
Yes, so it’s sort of under a bigger umbrella of DRBI, or developmental relationship based intervention. And under that umbrella, there’s a few different approaches. So there’s dir floor time that I know we’ve had the chance to talk about. There’s play project. So there’s a bunch of different approaches under that. And so we sort of borrow from what’s working for this child. But we always make sure that we are thinking developmentally. So where’s this child in this moment? And we work on building that relationship.
HR:
Tell our audience a little bit about dir floor time.
JT:
Sure. So dir floor time stands for developmental individual differences based intervention. And really what that is, if we just sort of break down the parts, so we’re thinking about where the child is developmentally? So are they able to be calm and regulated in their body? Are they able to engage? So these are sort of different capacities? Are they able to have back and forth communication? Are they able to problem solve, so we really look at where they are on that developmental ladder. And then we think about their individual differences or individual profile. So how they’re taking in the world, and then we build the relationship. And floor time is really, that’s the fun of it, that’s when we get to interact in a way that’s appropriate for that child in that moment.
HR:
Can you compare and contrast, the behavioral approach to the developmental approach?
JT:
So behavioral approaches have been the traditional predominant approach. And one of the biggest reasons is that it was covered by insurance. So if the options are, you know, this is covered, and recommended versus this thing that is not covered, I mean, very quickly, there’s a difference. But behavioral approaches do tend to be more adult lead. Where’s the developmental approach, we follow the child and we really watch where they are developmentally, we connect around what they love what they’re interested in. And then we work to build them up developmentally. So here, we’re not thinking about isolated behaviors or skills. We’re thinking about things like, you know, can the child be calm and regulated in their body? Can the child connect with another person? Can the child have some way of two, two way communication with another person? Can they problem solve? So we’re really thinking about the whole child, and how to support them to fulfill whatever goals dreams they may have, and we take their opinions very seriously. We’re not here to say, you know, the goal is you will not stand up for five minutes, or that was a silly example. But you know, you know, you will not run out of the room, when you don’t like something so well, maybe we’ll take a goal like that. So I’ve seen goals, such as you know, the child will not leave the room. And so in a behavioral approach, there might be a whole bunch of tips and tricks to get that child to not leave the room. But in a developmental approach, the first thing we think of is, why is that child trying to leave the room? And so we’re really thinking from the child’s perspective, we put ourselves in their shoes, you know, is it this lights blinking, I wonder if that’s it, or, you know, there’s a lot of chocolate in the other room. So we want to get to the why. And we want to connect with them around the why. And it’s just such a respectful approach, where we’re really respecting every individual who’s involved, including the parents. And then also brings back the neurodiversity affirming, we’re not trying to change or fix, we’re trying to understand and support. And so I think that’s a pretty big difference.
HR:
What can parents learn from the developmental approach?
JT:
Well, so ideally, we want parents to be very much part of the whole process. And we want them to learn how to connect with their child. So that way, they can connect throughout the day, all day, every day. And you know, so often people think we need these, you know, oh, 45 minutes to play starting now. And it’s like, Phil, we can connect and like, you know, when it’s time to wake up or time to get ready for the day, bath time. And so we want parents to be connecting with their kids all day, every day. And we want parents to be empowered to have fun with their kids.
HR:
What advice would you have for anyone out there on how to connect to their child when they’re having a great deal of trouble connector?
JT:
That’s a really good question Hackie. So what I would recommend is to just take a moment and watch what is your child doing? And then try to put yourself in their shoes and think about what are they experiencing in this moment? And I think once you do that, there’s a shift that happens. And you will understand, Oh, he’s interested in that ball because of the spark the sparkly pieces, like oh, let’s go look at the sparkly pieces together. So taking that moment just to wait watch and wonder, gives us the perfect opportunity to learn how to connect in that moment because it could be different moment to moment. But taking that time to observe is really important.
HR:
You remember at some of the conferences of the AADMD with Dr. Rick Rader and Steve Perlman, the emphasis on getting on the floor and playing, just playing together, to see what’s liked what’s not liked.
JT:
It’s huge. It’s huge. And then we also like to think about where’s the child’s attention and then what is their intention. So, you know, if a child, if they’re lining up trains, for example, you know, their attentions on the trains, but their intention is to line them up, right to bring some order to it. And so by by looking at those two pieces, we know that, you know, our approach to connecting for that child wouldn’t be to go and mess up all their trains, right, we would connect by helping to bring order to that system. So yes, I totally agree, get on the floor and observe and have some fun together.
HR:
Jen, what could everyone learn from the developmental approach, interacting on a daily basis?
JT:
That’s such a great question. Well, I’ll say for me, a developmental approach has changed everything about the way I interact with everyone. And sort of like I just explained with the kids, you know, I always think about what’s going on for this person in this moment, try to put myself in the other person’s shoes and really try to connect. And I think, if we could all connect with each other, just a little bit more, we would all be just a little bit happier. And we would really understand other people’s point of views. Sometimes I think we get very stuck in our mind about what’s right and what’s wrong. Without that gray, and I think we could all use a little extra gray.
HR:
Jamie, could you tell us your journey, how you got into special ed and beyond?
JT:
I always knew I wanted to go into special ed. I had, I was part of the Best Buddies program in high school. And it was just pretty game changing to hear all of these things that my best buddy, you know, her parents would talk about, oh, the doctor said she could never do this. And she will never be able to do that. And she’ll never do this. And I just thought it was so cool to bust all of those, you know, limitations. And she just burst right through all of them. We’re still very good friends, by the way we talk, we zoom every Sunday, to this day. But what I loved about Special Ed was that, you know, society has these limits. And I think through special education, with the right attitude, we can really just throw a lot of those away and say there are no limits. Here’s the goal. Let’s see how we can make this happen. But I will say that the first time I met my first student with autism that I mean, it was like one of those magical moments where do we have time for a little story?
HR:
Sure.
JT:
Okay. So we’re in class one day and, and I was teaching in a resource room. So there was a variety of different exceptionalities in the class, cerebral palsy, learning disorders, all autism, all sorts of things. And just an amazing group of humans is actually how I’d prefer to call them and one of the kids with autism in the middle of class or jumped up and started flapping and he said, “channel 7, channel 7.” And you know, as a first year teacher, I was taught to be very behavioral, you know, sit down, time to pay attention. And a few minutes after that, I heard a helicopter. And a few minutes after that, I saw channel seven helicopter go by the room. And I thought that was odd. And a few minutes later, he starts jumping up and down again, “channel 10, channel 10”. Shelton, I thought, now this is getting odd. You know, again, sit down. We’re in the middle of class where first year teacher I so wish I could go back. And then few minutes later heard a helicopter A few minutes later looked out the window. It was channel 10. And so what slowly started coming into my brain is Oh, my gosh, this child could not only hear a helicopter before I could, but he could tell what channel the helicopter was from. And it was just like this super ability. And you know, I’d be in IEP meetings and all these things. Everyone’s talking about all the things he’s not good at. and all the things that, you know, he should be doing better at. And I just thought, but this kid has a gift, you know. And I think that’s, we all have gifts. But I think so many on the spectrum have these gifts that are just ready to be utilized and shared. And I just want more people to understand that and to recognize them and share them, and to appreciate them.
HR:
How can our audience learn more about your work? Sure.
JT:
So Positive Development can be found positivedevelopment.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, all the things everywhere, all the new cool things? Am I missing one? Threads? Is that a cool new thing? Threads? I don’t know. But we can be found everywhere. And all sorts of blog posts and information about it. And we’re just really excited to get the word out that there are options that it doesn’t all have to be behavioral, and that we can find something that works for everyone.
HR:
What’s the biggest thing that you feel that people misunderstand about autism?
JT:
I think a lot of people come in with the impression that we’re here to fix. And the fact is, there’s nothing broken. So I just sort of want to throw that in the trash and say, No, we’re neurodiversity affirming, we are here to support you to do what you want to do. We’re not here to fix anybody, there’s nothing to fix.
HR:
And like so many of the leaders who will my admire, like Stephen Shore, so many others, you are going from a strength based explain the difference between that approach of what’s your strength is versus trying to fix all your weaknesses?
JT:
Sure. So you know, we all have so many strengths. And when we focus on those, and we build those up, we can then broaden them out to cover any topic, anything. But if you’re working from a more deficit, focus, where we just focus on the areas you’re not good at, and just practice those over and over again. You know, after a lot of drills and a lot of repetition, you might make progress that way. But it won’t be nearly as fast or effective. As if we work from strengths. And I just think about myself. And you know, I’m a terrible speller. And if I spent, you know, if it was just like, Oh, we got to get your spelling better, let’s drill out those spelling words, then it might get better, but I would be miserable. Versus like, hey, let’s write something I love writing. I love being creative. And if I write something without worrying about the spelling, you know, there are no limits to what could happen. So I think we can make a lot more progress a lot faster, and include a lot more joy, when we work from strengths instead of deficits.
HR:
You just accidentally segwayed into how your method is utilizing IT.
JT:
Ah, yes, that’s such a great topic. And you know, it in the world of AI, it’s just it’s so fascinating, right? I will say, sort of the sorry, I didn’t mean to bring AI into it. But but at a basic level, AAC devices, right. So we want to make sure that everyone has a way to communicate, and AAC devices. So it could be just you know, on an iPad, a few apps, even a voice output, some people even…
HR:
Explain what that is and what the abbreviation stands.
JT:
Thank you very much sorry, assistive augmentative communication devices. So it’s a way to give people without a voice, a way to communicate what they’re wanting, thinking, feeling needing in the moment. And you know, there are so many kids on the spectrum who are so smart, and so intelligent, but they might not have a way to communicate that they might not be able to speak verbally, and maybe their motor skills aren’t super reliable. So they don’t have the body language to let us know what they think feel want need. They’ll know it. So it’s just a matter of giving them a way to express it.
HR:
You have some specific dramatic examples, if you could have some of those who had a goal — can’t communicate. And after they’re with you they could communicate?
JT:
Sure. I’ve got a few examples in mind. So one of the students that I’m thinking about in particular, we really weren’t sure where he was developmentally he had a hard time controlling his body he would just he spent a lot of time running, running in circles and you know, little thing was like we couldn’t figure out what color was his favorite. And that was sort of frustrating for me. Because, you know, I want to give everyone you know, if you love orange, I want to give you an orange balloon and an orange marker and all the things. So, so he would just pick different colors every time. And I remember once I gave on an assistive device, there were all the different colors. And I just said, What color is your favorite? And he pointed to black? And I thought, Well, no wonder. It didn’t seem like he had a favorite color before. Because black isn’t an option. You know, what color crayon do you want? Usually, Black isn’t in there. And this particular child who’s now actually an adult, I mean, he’s just fascinating. He, we went from working on, you know, Apple begins with the letter A point to the Apple sort of thing, which is a very sort of traditional approach that we don’t really utilize anymore. But once we got him typing, he said, I want to know more about Barack Obama. We said, How do you know about Barack Obama, he said, My mom listens to NPR. And it was just like, whoa, okay, so we are so far beyond A is for apple, you know, he wanted to talk about politics and all of this stuff, you would never have a clue observing him. But having a device having a way to express what he wants and knows and thinks and feels. I mean, it’s just, it’s a game changer. I think that’s another assumption we tend to put on a lot of kids who maybe don’t have reliable verbal communication, is for whatever reason, that’s equivalent to their intelligence. But it’s just not the case. So if someone doesn’t have a voice, we need to find a way for them to communicate. And then we can get into, you know, what do they like, what they love? How are they feeling.
HR:
In your population is how does — what’s the gender breakdown?
JT:
So there are a lot more males diagnosed than female, I believe it’s about one to four. Which is fascinating. You know, when I used to run a school, I remember actually the boy who I was just mentioning, he taped them, I want to be in a real school. And I said, Well, you are in a real school, and it was a small private school with about eight boys. And he said, no real schools have girls, and I just my heart sort of broke for him. But, um, but yeah, there, there definitely are more males and females.
HR:
Jen, I know that you focus on individual, young person whose brain is a little bit different. But tell us how you manage the expectations of the parent for that child.
JT:
Great question. So we like to have parents with us from the very beginning, we want them to be an active part of the team. So that way, we’re able to make decisions and talk about expectations together. Because we really want to be on the same page when it comes to that. And we also tell parents that, you know, the more you can be involved in the process with us, the more you can join sessions, the more you you know, sign up for parent support, the more progress will start to happen at home, and then it will generalize twice as fast. So So I guess we want them a to be part of the team. And then to jump in and get in there with us.
HR:
Well, Jen Trocchio of Positive Development, it’s been a pleasure to have you here again, and we hope you’ll be back soon at different brands.
JT:
Oh, it’s been such an honor. Thanks so much, Hackie.
HR:
Keep up your great work Jen.
JT:
Oh, you too.
