Embracing Autistic Joy, with Dr. Angela Lauria | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 153
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IN THIS EPISODE:
In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts speak with self-advocate, podcaster, and writer Dr. Angela Lauria. Dr. Angela Lauria is a late-diagnosed Autistic who has drawn on her life-long special interest in non-fiction to help almost 2,000 entrepreneurs write, publish, and promote their books through her company Difference Press. She is the creator and co-host of The Autistic Culture Podcast which advocates for viewing autism as a cultural difference to be embraced and not a disorder to be fixed. Angela is also an author herself with 8 books, including a Wall Street Journal and USA Today Bestseller. She has a B.A. and an M.A. in Journalism and Media Affairs from George Washington University and a PhD in Communications from European Graduate School.
Look for the Autistic Culture Podcast at https://autisticculture.substack.com/
Look for Difference Press at https://www.differencepress.com/
And for more about Angela, visit her site https://www.angelalauria.com/
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com
Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION: Note: the following transcription was automatically generated. Some imperfections may exist.
HALEY MOSS (HM): Hello, and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Haley moss, and author, advocate, artist and I’m autistic. I feel very lucky, as usual, to get to share the Spectrumly stage. And I’m joined here by my one and only co host…
DR LORI BUTTS (LB): Hi, I’m Dr. Lori Butts. I’m a psychologist and an attorney.
HM: How are you?
LB: I’m good, how are you?
HM: I feel like it’s been forever. I don’t know where the time is going. And I feel like it’s also going very slow, all at the same time. Before we got started today, I mentioned to you that I went on vacation. Right. And something I don’t know how we feel about I know we talked about travel every once in a while here on the podcast, because it can be stressful for so many different reasons. But I’m stressed because when I get back, I don’t realize how much I’ve missed from just a week of not being home, not work. I’m stressed from that. I’m relieved to be sleeping in my own bed again. And then probably maybe 2, 3, 4 hours later. I’m sad, because I wish I was still on vacation.
LB: It’s a lot of different emotions, isn’t it?
HM: It really is. I’ve been back for a little over a week. And I’m truly ready to go back.
LB: Right? Because you get punished. I mean with everything that piles up and everything you’ve ever loved. And you’d have to keep kept up. So it’s almost punishing to go on vacation. Then you need a vacation from the vacation.
HM: A true punishment is the fact I got a glorious sun tan. And it’s starting to peel because obviously I burned in the Caribbean as everybody does. And now that it started to peel 10 days or so later, I was like really, I was all excited. I’m like, I got this nice tango and I looked like I went away. I have this glow about me. And now I’m like, I’m all flaky.
LB: The glow is peeling off of you.
HM: Yeah, I better get some that like self tanner they have at the drugstore.
LB: Exactly.
HM: That is a little bit about how my life is going.
LB: I really love how you summarize the whole coming back to re entry from vacation. It’s really perfect.
HM: Ridiculousness. Oh, and the other part of that, which is my executive functioning and thank goodness I went with my family. If I was alone, I’d be freaking out having a week’s worth of laundry to do. So I’d forget about things in the dryer for like two days, and then it would take me somehow another seven days to get laundry.
LB: Yeah, and those things. Yeah, they’re interesting to navigate.
HM: But thankfully today, we don’t have to think too much about it. Because even if our listeners haven’t heard from us in a while, we are not indeed on our prolonged vacation. We’re back in business and ready to celebrate with you and very happy to be here. And to do so we actually get to welcome a friend and guest to the show. Are you ready?
LB: I’m ready.
HM: All right, y’all get get pumped. Today we are welcoming Dr. Angela Lauria. Dr. Angela Lauria, is a late diagnosed autistic who has drawn on her lifelong special interest in nonfiction to help almost 2000, And you heard me right, 2000 entrepreneurs write, publish and promote their books through her company, Difference Press. She is the creator and co host of the Autistic Culture Podcast, which advocates for viewing autism as a cultural difference to be embraced, and not a disorder to be fixed. Angela is also an author herself with eight books, including a Wall Street Journal, and USA Today best seller. She has a BA and an MA in journalism and media affairs from George Washington University, and a PhD in communications from European Graduate School. Welcome to the show.
DR ANGELA LAURIA (AL): Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.
HM: I’m excited to get to talk to you and I don’t ever claim to speak for Dr. Butts. But I know from doing this podcast long enough, she’s probably excited to talk to you too. So Oh, to get us started today. Would you mind sharing with our audience how you became involved in the autism community?
AL: Yeah, so I had kind of a two step process. I think when I first got diagnosed, I was 39. So that was about 11 years ago, and it was a huge relief. So I’ve I felt like I was like, I’ve been telling you guys I knew it. I knew I was different. So it wasn’t a bad thing. But I still saw it. I didn’t even know there was an option. I still saw it through like a metal Go model and something’s wrong with me. And so the first part of my journey until the pandemic was really focusing really hard on trying to fix myself. It’s like I think of it as the equivalent of adult ABA. So I went through every elixir every gut cleaning colloidal mercury, silver, stand on your head, meditate 10 day silent retreats like I did everything to like make my autism go away, which as you may or may not be aware is very ineffective. And then I wore myself like down I was completely exhausted. I was in total and complete burnout. I was seeing like, I don’t know, faith healers, witch doctors, acupuncturist. I had like 30 medical appointments a week trying to like cure my autism. And in the process, I just got sicker and sicker. I ended up losing my voice. Completely not metaphorically. For over a year. I went to Adele’s doctor to like fix my voice and do vocal surgery. I can’t even tell you what I went through. And then somewhere in the middle of the pandemic scrolling on TikTok, I discovered the actually autistic hashtag. And this completely different sociological model of viewing autism. And I was still in burnout for about three years, it was a really dark time. But when I came out of it, I dropped the whole trying to fix this and embraced a more autism strengths-based approach, autism affirming approach, and they kind of fixed everything and changed everything. So that’s kind of how the journey went. And then, about a year and a half ago, we started the Autistic Culture Podcast, which has been a part of my own healing and therapy and just doing advocacy and being a part of the community has been just a big part of me living a much more emotionally regulated, autistic authentic life.
LB: Can you tell us about your podcast?
AL: Yeah, I’d love to. Um, so I think there are lots of different ways of looking at autism in podcasts. And I think ours is pretty unique. We just look at it through the cultural contributions that autistic people have made in the world and in the culture at large. So it is a celebration every day is artistic. Pride Day on our podcast, we call it artistica. And we feature the accomplishments of people like Steve Jobs or Questlove, or Emily Dickinson or Hans Christian Andersen. And we talk about those contributions and then connect it to even though we all might not be like great Autistics, we have a lot of things in common like our bottom up processing, or monitor opik focus our hyper connected brains and we talk about how some of the Great’s of our culture, were able to leverage those diff this differences to make an impact and celebrate that that is our shared heritage and our birth rate.
HM: That sounds so just joy filled and makes me very happy as an autistic person as well. So can you share a little bit more from your perspective of what it really means to view autism as that cultural difference rather than a disorder?
AL: Yeah, well, it doesn’t mean that we don’t have challenges, especially navigating a world where we are in the neuro minority. And that is how, how it’s always going to be so. But I think whenever you are in a minority culture, you gain strength by connecting with people that share that culture, and celebrating some of the unique aspects. So like, I grew up Italian American, and a lot of the people in my town are Irish Americans. And I can recognize Irish culture I know a boron and Irish step dancing and a pennywhistle and eating backstays Or you know, whatever bubble and squeak cabbage on the the what holiday do we eat that on, the shamrock shake day. St. Patrick’s Day. And so like, even though I’m not Irish, I can celebrate that culture. And when I see something I recognize it and That’s kind of our goal is we want people to recognize autistic dance, auistic movements, autistic accents, the art that comes from our culture, the science that comes from our culture and to be able to just look at and be like: Oh, that’s autistic culture. And I was really inspired by the Deaf culture movement in in this way.
LB: Can you also tell us about Difference Press?
AL: Oh, sure. So I didn’t know this. But turns out book writing is my special interest. So lifelong special interest. I have many special interests. But when I was five, I wrote my first book. And I’ve written a book just about every year to 18 months, for the last 45 years. And I always wrote people’s papers in high school, I paid my way through college by writing people’s papers for $10 a page. And when I got out of college, I got a job as a ghostwriter. Actually, senior year, spring semester, I got a job doing ghost writing. And it’s just always been really easy for me. I didn’t know that was because it was like a mono tropic focus of mine, but it is. So I work with people who want to get mostly nonfiction books done that’s like where my strength and most of my experiences, and I work as a ghost writer and editor, I offer publishing services, marketing services, and my focus now is shifting my business to exclusively serving neurodivergent people right now it’s about 70% of my business. But my goal would be to have all people from the neurodivergent community, lots of Dyslexics, ADHD, autistic. And those are who I feel like I have the most fun working with.
HM: I feel that too, I think when you are around other neurodivergent people, they’re sort of just a vibe, especially if you kind of at least somewhat get along with them.
AL: There’s 100% a vibe, even if I disagree, particularly for me with autistic people, or neurodivergent people that have strong bottom up processing, even if we like completely disagree, we’re at least approaching the problem in the same way. And so it just makes communication so much easier and more relaxing. And my primary goal in every day, is to stay emotionally regulated at least 80% of the time. So my goal is like 80% of the time, I’m emotionally regulated, I can’t control everything, I had to go to the motor vehicle department today. Like I can’t control that. Okay. It was raining when I was driving like, can’t control that. But I try and set up my schedule to stay as emotionally regulated as possible, because the cost of a meltdown or the cost of the shutdown is just like, I just don’t feel like I have it in me anymore. And so yeah, if I can avoid it, I will. So I used to go out a lot more. And I still go out. But like I go every Thursday to pub quiz trivia trivia with the same people sitting at the same table in the same bar. And I get the same diet coke with lemon and they drink the same thing and wear the same clothes. And so yeah, it just like limits the chances of losing my mind.
HM: I totally get that. And when you were talking about giving space for more diverse voices and neurodivergent voices in particular, what can other publishers learn from what you and what Difference Press are doing?
AL: I think that’s such a great question. So there is so much just like surface level. I don’t know I want to call it BS in the publishing industry. And so getting to authentic voices is really weird, because there’s so much people pleasing and posturing and hierarchy observation. So I think that the books that we do, and many ways are better, and they’re more accurate. And then when you add to that, like kind of lack of hierarchy, the data processing and the special interest in the monitor, but focus, they go deeper, and they get to the point sooner. So I don’t know if you’ve ever read a book. This has happened to me a bunch times I read an article, like whatever in the New York Times or The New Yorker, the Atlantic and I was like, Wow, what a great article. And then the author of that article will write a whole book on it. And really, it was just an article. And I read the book and I’m like, wow, that was 20 pages crammed into 200 pages, they just kept repeating the same thing. I got that from the title and the description. That, to me is so frustrating. And I think we just like, nobody has time for that anymore. I want shorter books that go a lot deeper and convey a lot more faster.
LB: I think that’s fantastic.
AL: Its the value of neurodiversity, right, like that’s what we mean about neurodiversity is like, all different brains are great. There’s, like, sometimes I want to read something light and surface like, especially after, I don’t know, a stressful day at work or something, or if I have toddlers. And that’s why we need a diversity of voices. We don’t need all the same people that went to the same 20 universities that had the same upbringing that went to the same types of high schools, sharing their perspective, like there is value in different voices, and obviously, neurodivergent voices are among the diversity that we have in our world.
HM: Yeah, absolutely. And how can we learn more about what you’re doing? And how can we follow and of course, support the writers and the books that you’ve written and the books that you are helping to bring into the world?
AL: Um, yeah, well, you can find me I mean, what I really want you guys to do though, is come listen to the podcast over at autisticculturepodcast.com. But if you do want to talk books, you can always find me a differencepress.com. So that’s best where I’m at.
HM: Awesome. So two of the things together. So we have the autistic culture, podcast, and different press, which clearly, at least from what I can hear in this interview: both are things that bring you a lot of joy. And with that in mind, we’d like to transition to having a discussion about autistic joy.
AL: Yay!
HM: So this is something that I take very, very personally, when it comes to autistic joy. Because I pitch this every year as some kind of theme when people want to do their autism acceptance month programming, because so often is to share your story and share everything that’s hard for you and all the different challenges, right? I know that there’s value in I know, people want to know what’s hard for me in my day to day in my life. But it really doesn’t take center stage in my life. At this point. I feel like because life is you know, life. But I’ve made the best of what I can and some things are hard for me and it sucks. And some things are not hard for me and it rocks. But things that bring me joy in my life. And there’s still so much in my life that has such immense quality to it. And so many things that are good. Like if you ask me very objectively, I have a great quality of life. Subjectively, I would tell you have a great quality of life, because there’s a lot of artistic joy in it. There’s a lot of happy flappy great moments. And I want us to think about how we can support that with each other because I know we don’t always have the same special interests. Think about I feel bad for any guy who’s ever dated me who’s had to listen to me talk about fashion and hair. And of course, none of them know how to shop for me if they ever had to, so.
AL: The right one will get it though. But listen, like how can you joy? Artistic Joy sounds so like frivolous or extra or like the cherry on top of the sundae. But it is the Sunday? I was watching. So my husband’s also autistic and his one of his special interests is English football. So, soccer. And so we’re watching this show called “Welcome to Wrexham” and I had no idea it was just like the next episode, but it was their autism episode. Had no idea starts with a kid like a two year old kid or something playing on the beach. And all of a sudden I start to hear the minor keys. And I was like, Oh no, this kid’s gonna be autistic. I can feel it. Here we go. And then his dad who’s a soccer player is like “I just feel like I’ve let Alvey down”. And I’m like, Oh my God, why do we have to do this like this is there is no way to get to an un-pathologize, de-medicalized model. And that’s not to say autistic people don’t have medical needs because we do because we’re people and people have medical needs. But autism isn’t one of those needs. It is a neuro type. There may be coke co occurring medical needs. Yeah, this Dad slash soccer player was not sad about his kids medical needs which appeared to be none by the way.
HM: I still wonder how much of that’s filming not so much anything else.
AL: I filming and editing…
HM: I’ve literally seen stuff about me and how I share my own story writing in a way that I felt bad for myself. Take it for what it’s worth, I have actually seen footage of myself arranged in such a way. And I’ve said things like, oh, I don’t want to be object to pity where I genuinely pitied myself because of how it was arranged. It was like, there’s someone on the screen who was saying things that I would say, acting like me and doing my thing, my life, and I feel bad for them. And I’m like, What the hell? Yeah, we all know that.
AL: We all have hard times. That’s not to say it, but it’s like every time we say autism, if the minor key and the sad, wistful looking out the window is part of the true, we’re stuck.
LB: Right.
HM: There’s so much to be said about cultural differences even within not just autism. But like you said, this was an English footballer, the way that perhaps autism is viewed within culture. And even in England, it’s probably better is slightly if not very, but I think more likely slightly because I work with a lot of Brits on autism related stuff, that it’s slightly different in access to serve well, whatnot.
AL: That’s what’s interesting about this…
HM: That’s the thing you wish they would focus on and also that the kid is just, you know, happy that you said his name was Alvey, that Alvey’s like living his best life. And you know, he’s slapping his hand he’s doing his thing. And mom and dad are very supportive. And of course, you know, the fact that they’re English footballers, they can bring a lot of good trouble to the cause and good awareness.
AL: Well, that’s what’s interesting, because England is actually very autism affirming as a as a culture. But this is an American show. Oh, it was edited and sound designed by Americans who are like autism disease, sad. But I bet his parents wouldn’t even recognize their story. It was just the way it was edited, to provoke a response. And that’s what I think there are two ways to fight against that. I think one you can like, argue and protest and write letters to the editor or bad reviews. Or you could just put more artistic joy into the world.
HM: I’m with the latter, I am all about us being loud and proud. And just being so ourselves, because I think the world doesn’t want us to be
AL: right. Oh, but they like it, right? Like they like it when we’re solving the world. They like bridges, or inventing tools or creating most of Broadway or any conference, or you have to take it then. So that’s why it’s important that we are out about the fact that we have…
HM: But I don’t want to live my life without having an expectation of curing cancer.
AL: Yes.
HM: I have no better way to describe that vibe of, oh, they like us when we’re doing this thing. And like, yes, they do. But I’m not going to cure cancer, I went to law school guys. I mean that with love.
AL: You don’t have to cure cancer, that’s fine.
LB: Yes.
HM: I would still hope that I pass a vibe check. I’m not like cancer, I wish I could cure cancer. Cancer sucks. Everybody knows this. This is not good. But I think having more autistic joy in the world is a wonderful, important thing. I know, we could probably talk about this all day long, which is kind of the scary part of it. And I think honestly, that’s also probably a really big part of even what you’re doing is making sure that we put more artistic joy in the world and not just center one person’s joy, but all of our joy. Just like when you talk about your husband’s interests and your interests and my interests and all the other autistic people we meet on Spectrumly I do think the more I reflect on it, the more that what we’re doing with our respective podcasts and creating content and media by and for autistic people and those who love us is really just putting more artistic joy into the world. Absolutely. And also with a sprinkle of information and education at the same time, which is bingo, because you should come away thinking about something new.
AL: Yep. Couldn’t agree more.
LB: Yeah.
HM: One of my best friends says every day is a school day because you learn a lot in the real world, world and just from culture and things. And I’m like, Yeah, I like that sentiment to go with it. Well, let’s get more joy into the world.
LB: Yeah. I mean, you know, Haley, I’ve known you for a long time. You bring a lot of joy into the world and listening to you, Angela, you clearly bring a lot of joy into the world too. So it’s really you guys met positivity and it’s just it’s really cool, lovely to hear and to be a part of.
HM: Thank you and we appreciate you too. And I appreciate you as our fantastic neurotypical ally who just gets it and I try to get in and enjoys that being around all of it.
LB: Yeah, I do. I do.
HM: It makes me happy just being around people who are happy being around us too. One big circle of love.
LB: Exactly, exactly.
HM: I don’t have a complete aside we are recording around Valentine’s Day. So this is a very fitting theme of joy and love.
AL: Perfect.
LB: There you go, there you go…
AL: Our um, our Valentine’s Day episode for the Autistic Culture Podcast was lessons in chemistry. It’s an amazing autistic love story between two artistic chemists.
HM: I love it.
LB: How nice.
HM: Yes, let’s keep spreading that. I know that. I don’t know when our episodes gonna air for what that’s worth, but I love it. But let’s keep our theme of joy alive and well and kicking no matter where you go. Whether it is here at Spectrumly speaking with our guests, the one and only wonderful Dr. Angela Lauria, her podcast, her books, all sorts of great stuff. So make sure to learn more about the Autistic Culture Podcast, and Difference Press from Angela. And as for the rest of us, be sure to check out differentbrains.org and to check out their Twitter, or X for that matter, and Instagram @DiffBrains. And don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me, you can find me on all major social media platforms. Or you can also say hello at HaleyMoss.com. I’m looking forward to keeping this conversation going and hearing from you.
LB: I can be found at CFIexperts.com Please be sure to subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts or your podcast app of choice. And don’t hesitate to send questions to Spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
