Cover Image - Accommodations For Neurodivergent Lawyers, With Mikhaela Ackerman | Spectrumly Speaking Ep. 113

Accommodations for Neurodivergent Lawyers, with Mikhaela Ackerman | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 113

 

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IN THIS EPISODE:

(AUDIO – 35 minutes) In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts welcome back autism self-advocate Mikhaela Ackerman to discuss neurodiversity acceptance in the profession of law. She founded a blog “Edge of the Playground” in February 2018 to help individuals on the autism spectrum with life transitions and their families. Mikhaela is a contributing author on The Mighty, Mental Health Talk and many more. 

For more about Mikhaela: edgeoftheplayground.com


Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.

For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com

Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:    

HALEY MOSS (HM):  

Hello, and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Haley Moss, an attorney, author, artist, and I’m autistic. And I’m joined here by my co-host…

DR LORI BUTTS (LB):  

Hi, I’m Dr. Lori Butts. I’m a psychologist and an attorney. 

HM:  

How are you? Somehow time just flies. 

LB:  

I’m good, how are you? You’re pretty busy so time should fly.

HM:  

Busy is a good thing around here. So I can’t complain too much.

LB:  

Good. How are things going?

HM:  

I’m honestly just having a lot of fun. So good. 

LB:  

Good. I’m glad you’re enjoying everything. 

HM:  

And every once in a while I get to leave the house.

LB:  

I’m going to I’m going to the courthouse for the first time today. So… 

HM:  

Wow. 

LB:  

I know. 

HM:  

You’re gonna be great. 

LB:  

It’s gonna be very weird.

HM:  

I know in person court operations are starting to come back completely. I think they’re gonna have that by the end of the month, at least in Miami.

LB:  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. This is all yeah, it’s all set up. So I’ll be testifying live and in person and in a real courtroom, as opposed to on zoom. So we’ll see. 

HM:  

Oh, so I guess we’re just gonna slowly be phasing out zoom. 

LB:  

Oh no. I don’t think it’s ever going to be phased out. 

HM:  

I hope not. I actually really enjoy that hybrid model.

LB:  

Me too. And I mean, just the traffic alone to get where I needed to go. took me an hour and it shouldn’t you know, so that that, to me is the biggest motivator to continue is just the traffic and driving issue. 

HM:  

Are you excited for today’s conversation?

LB:  

I’m very excited.

HM:  

Me too. So today we are welcoming back a huge friend of the show and someone that we always enjoy talking to. And if you are familiar with her, then that’s wonderful. And if not, we’re going to reintroduce you to our friend and esteemed guests: Mikhaela Ackerman. As you may recall, Mikhaela Ackerman was diagnosed with autism when she was five years old back in the early 90s, and she was nonverbal in her early childhood. She founded the blog edge of the playground in February of 2018. To help individuals on the autism spectrum with life transitions and their families. Mikhaela  is a contributing author on the mighty mental health talk and many more. Mikhaela  earned her JD in law in 2016, and currently works in legal compliance. Additionally, Mikhaela  is a certified yoga instructor, and creates yoga classes specifically designed for neurodivergent people. Mikhaela  lives in North Carolina and loves reading, traveling and breaking stereotypes. Welcome back to the show. 

MIKHAELA ACKERMAN (MA):  

Hi, thank you. I’m so glad to be here. 

HM:  

Absolutely. I’m so glad to have you too. So, rather than our traditional interview, we’re actually just gonna go straight to discussion. Again, we know you, we love you and you’re someone that I think it’s always just a pleasure to talk to you. So what we want to talk today is a little bit about accommodations. We want to talk a little bit about neuro diversity acceptance in the legal profession. I know that you and I were talking just, I think it was last night actually we were dming back and forth about executive functioning, and how and even that like kind of idea of professionalism especially in legal where we’re held to these really high standards of being professional and acting a certain way and our way and I’m couldn’t help but think about that conversation we were having, and wondering, oh my gosh, this is going to masking in my having internalized ableism. What is going on here is there’s just so much and I guess I want to get started by asking you, how has the legal field been for you? Has it been pretty accepting? Have they been able to accommodate you if you needed it? I’m just curious.

MA:  

Yes so I’m pretty lucky, my workplace is really great. And because I don’t do litigation or anything, I’m more in like regulatory work. Um, it’s, it’s still a lot of work and fast paced work. But I would say the work culture is a lot more accepting. But I think the legal field in general creates a very, like pressure cooker environment for all types of people. And that’s why you see so many of us with like, mental health issues, things like that. In fact, I just had a friend from law school who had a baby, he took a week and a half vacation, and he returned to just hundreds of nasty emails about the fact he took personal times time to have the baby. So I think, um, you know, we need a lot of change, I think, in the way the culture is. And to be more accepting.

HM:  

Absolutely. So something I kept noticing is, instead of focusing on attorneys as humans, a lot of the really big firms and companies think the answer is just to pay people more. And it just kind of boggles me in a way like, oh, okay, so instead of letting people have weekends off, or more accommodating hours for things like, you know, life and babies and mental health, you just think you can have them working at same breakneck pace by just paying them more like, it’s, it just seems confusing to me.

MA:  

Exactly. And then you burn out. And I think to, specifically with neurodivergent people or any disability, what people forget is, um, you know, you can ask for an accommodation at any time, just because you were able to perform before, without an accommodation doesn’t mean it won’t come a point where you shouldn’t ask for one, maybe you’re burning out or something changes in your life and you need an accommodation, then it shouldn’t really be a requirement that oh, well, you didn’t ask for one beforehand. So I do need one now. No, I’m disabled at any time in their life. So um, it’s absolutely acceptable to ask for accommodations, and, you know, expect that people will work with you.

LB:  

That’s the that’s the last piece is the piece that I think people don’t have as an expectation that, that people are going to work with you, especially in that situation where it’s something that happens during the career during the process, as opposed to walking in the door. I think that that takes would take a lot of courage and a lot of a lot of environments, like the high pressure environments that we’re talking about.

MA:  

Absolutely. I think too. Another thing that law firms struggle with is, you know, finding that diverse talent, and then when they do find the diverse talent, they kind of sometimes just put us in a back office or only really talk about us when it’s autism awareness month. It’s like, you need to really take a look at your work culture, whether that be a firm a corporation, and figure out, Okay, if you have an employee that’s not thriving, why are they not thriving? Because there’s probably a reason for that, and especially if it’s a neurodivergent person, really assess how you can make the workplace more accommodating and more friendly to that type of mind.

HM:  

Absolutely, and I really like what you were saying about that kind of backroom thing, because that’s an experience that I feel like I’ve had before is that based on the stereotypes of autism, that people assume that you’re very good at very specific tasks. And that’s not always the case. And something else that I’ve noticed with other folks who are autistic or neurodivergent, especially in firm culture, workplace culture more broadly, is a lot of organizations think just getting them in the door and having that diverse talent, but that’s enough is that they forget that we want careers and that we want mentorship and that we want guidance. 

MA:  

Exactly. And we’re capable of the work, we just may need to do it in a different way. Um, you know, which is totally fine. I think it’s just a matter of educating people on how to do that and where to find the diverse talent and then once they find it, how to how to keep us and how to make sure we’re able to perform.

LB:  

Yeah, I think keeping and the accommodations part is the is — I think the scary part for… because a I think, one not, you know, not knowing the right questions to ask and not knowing you know how to mentor somebody that’s very divergent if that’s your first experience with somebody like that, I think that that can be, I mean, scary, might intimidating or something along those lines for the person, the hiring partners and, and you’re absolutely right, like they check off, you can check off the list and this person’s here, but that’s not that’s when the when the work begins really trying to do that. So there needs to be an educational piece about the open communication with the person that needs the accommodations, because not everybody needs the same kind of accommodations, everybody’s needs are different. And so understanding how to ask those questions and have that conversation about how we can support you to make you make you successful and, and make make you feel like your career is going in the right direction. And that’s an open conversation on both ends, both for the person that’s being hired to not feel, you know, you know, both you guys are great advocates, right, but not everybody is, is a strong self advocate, to be able to, to do that to say what they need to express what they need.

MA:  

Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. And I think part of the problem too is, you know, the law is such a, like an old profession. Right, right. Like archaic social structures and stuff. And I think especially like this past year, we’re starting to see like, a shift. And like those kinds of things breaking down, like we were saying earlier, with, you know, some zoom conferences just out of necessity, I think the law is finally seeing that there are different ways to do things to accommodate people. And so maybe that’s what it took, maybe it took having to accommodate abled people, yeah. For people to see, oh, hey, we can make these accommodations. And you know, CT will run just fine. And I mean, even the bar exam, like it took me a long time to get licensed because of the gatekeeping that goes on with the bar exam. It’s not meant to test neurodivergent minds. And so no, unless you’re a very specific population, you’re not going to perform well. So you’re leaving out a lot of very intelligent people in the population. And now with like, the UVI, and all these other things, I think we’re trending towards the direction where people are realizing, hey, there’s there’s more than one way to get people to be attorneys, and to get the people that we need.

HM:  

I have so many feelings about the bar exam, and I really don’t. So I’m willing to say what my opinions are on the bar exam. I think it shouldn’t exist. I think it’s racist. I think it’s classist. I think it’s ablest. I think that originally, Originally, it was invented to keep out racial minorities and women. So the history of the bar exam is actually rooted again in sexism, racism, classism, ableism, etc. I think we need a much better alternative, which if you ask me, the last year of law, school should be practical experience of learning how to represent humans or other entities because you could hypothetically pass a bar exam and have never been in a client interaction. And there’s something that’s kind of weird about you were expected to know how to lawyer upon passing a test that teaches random that you’re expected to just memorize random information.

LB:  

How about how about practicing attorneys who have practiced for many years and can’t pass the bar exam? You know, the other way around as well. It’s just a test to pass the test has nothing to do with anything.

MA:  

It’s how well you play the game.

HM:  

Exactly if you had to memorize any of those rules on the bar exam, and were expected to practice in that way you would be dealing with more bar complaints and more malpractice allegations. And you can imagine…

MA:  

Yes, and you know, that’s the first thing they say like you’ve passed the bar exam, but you don’t know how to lawyer because

LB:  

not embarrassing. It has nothing to do with each other too. I mean, as a psychologist, we create our tests and a way to if you want to tap into something that you know, that like the what you want to do, for example, or what you want, you know, there’s some correlation. There needs to be a scientific correlation between what you’re testing and what you’re testing for and what you’re trying to, you know, to, what’s the word I’m missing a word right now but anyway, what you’re trying to test the pert you wouldn’t test somebody their driving skills based upon right writing an essay, you know, like, it’s no, it’s arbitrary. Exactly, there needs to be a match in what you’re testing for, and there is zero match that exam, I’m sure very strong about that. I mean…

MA:  

Accomodations are also very hard to get on a system like that. And I won’t name the state. But I did apply to a state one of my first times around, and I applied for accommodations. And despite, like mountains of documentation, they denied me anyhow. So I was expected to take the test. I’m measured against, you know, a particular brain that I have, right? Listening was, Oh, you didn’t have accommodations on the L side, or anything else? I’m like, have you seen my LSAT scores? I probably should have.

HM:  

Or what if you didn’t get diagnosed until later on, like, just to? Anyway, actually, I feel like we can unpack the bar exam all day long. I don’t want to actually want on that note, I kind of want to shift gears, especially because you did mention the outset is, I know, I don’t know about you, but I hear from a lot of autistic college students and young people who, and even people who are willing and curious and want to pivot in their careers towards going to law school. And oftentimes, I’m always afraid to kind of warn them about sometimes how not always neurodivergent friendly, not just the professionals, but even just taking the outset or, or the bar exam, or any of these things can be so I guess I want to talk a little bit about law school. And that process, too, because there’s so many people who want to go to law school, especially in the wake of the disability rights movement, because after the passage of the ADA, that these folks have the opportunity to that there’s a commitment to social justice, Disability Justice, make an even just neuro diversity, movement, etc. So I guess I kind of want to know, your feelings on how how was law school for you? Or what advice might you have for autistic people who want to explore going into law? 

MA:  

So the actual academics of law school weren’t too bad for me, because I’m very strong in like reading and writing, things like that. I would say the hard part about it is the amount of work so you’re, you’re having to, you know, just the massive amounts of work and not burning out. So just really pacing yourself. Um, and then also, probably just the social aspect of it, because it’s said they purposely make it competitive. Everything about law school is set up to make you pitted against each other. Yeah, which creates a very harsh environment for anybody, so I think just really, I just kind of kept to myself, I found my like, one or two really good friends who, you know, vibed with me, and we just got through law school together. So I think just really not worrying too much about, like, how much you fit in. Because at the end of the day, I think that it’s a weird social culture, no matter what says, No, I wouldn’t beat yourself up for not really knowing the cubes or anything like that, because I don’t think any lawyers know that. I think it’s just a very strange bubble. Um, so really just finding, and then also finding the part of law where you thrive. So like, for me, juries, things like that are never going to be reasonable, like good for me, because I can’t read facial expressions, and I can’t like read a room so I could for like a dream could be asleep, and I would never know it. Writing on the other hand, I was really good at because you’re arguing appellate briefs, yeah. At all logical facts. And then what I do now is all like writing and regulatory. So finding really what you’re good at zoning in on that, and then really tailoring both your law school experience and your internships and things towards that.

LB:  

But I also think what Haley’s saying is, right, the laws that the law school portion is, is kind of the easiest portion of it, that I’ll set bookend by the outset and the bar exam, I mean, those two, oh, yes, those two are very, you know, difficult. And also, the other part of law school that I think is difficult, especially for people with executive functioning or planning is only having one exam. So yeah, into to be disciplined enough to understand that you have to stay on top of things, and organize all all semester long and there’s, there’s, you know, one test and that’s it that makes or breaks your your or your your your grades. I mean, that is a big, big, big shift from any, you know, from college or from high school and all of that. So that, that that needs I think somebody really needs to have a mentor or you know, somebody help them like really problem solve how you structure to get through that those types of courses. That’s difficult.

MA:  

The study buddies really helped me because I’d have someone who was really good at property, and they basically teach me. And, and we would make outlines together.

HM:  

You are much better at law school than I was, I didn’t make any study buddies.

LB:  

How did you get through law school without having a study buddy? 

HM:  

I also couldn’t executive function very well in law school, either. I genuinely don’t know sometimes how I survive. I don’t mean that to be funny, because I actually wanted to drop out. No, I did not, as we know, right. I thought about it at one point, cuz I thought that I wasn’t cut out for it. And the system is designed in such way and having only one test. You don’t even know if you’re writing practice exams if you’re doing it. Right. Right. You don’t get any guidance whatsoever. You’re just kind of like flailing around hoping something works.

LB:  

Right. Why wouldn’t you get a group of people together? What stopped you from from dry?

HM:  

I tried. And then I felt lost with what was going on. And they all wanted things done in their very specific way. And that was how I learned. I actually got like, my study, buddy was mostly outline with sometimes outlines from former students. And like people from like, that was my version of study buddies. I had outlines from people who’ve taken those classes, and I must have done okay. Okay, because I was able to make a couple acquaintances and friends in the class or two above me. And you know, when you’re no longer in your first year, especially, people are more than willing to help you. It’s your class that is competitive and difficult. And meanwhile, the ones who have already been “hazed” through this tradition of first year of law school are like, Okay, what can we do to make it less terrible for you?

LB:  

Right.

HM:  

I don’t know, I don’t like to talk about law school being “hazing” in a way. But in a lot of ways, it really is. I mean, look at how the LSAT has no bearing on law school, right? It has no bearing on legal practice, right? The bar exam has no bearing on what law school or legal practice. And I know some schools are actually starting to teach the bar exam in lieu of certain lawyering skills, because it benefits their bottom line of “look, we have pass rates”. That there’s this kind of shift even in legal education. And I’m not sure if it’s for the better. 

MA:  

It was almost like studying for a giant AP test. If you ever took AP classes, I felt like I was just studying for the test. And I agree with you with the different learning styles, I found that I did best when I kind of studied on my own first and the way that I learned and then I would come together with the study group or whatever, after I had done my own studying to kind of try to figure out what might be tested things like that. But as far as actually memorizing the information, I had to do that on my own time.

LB:  

Yeah, I did, too. Yeah, I did, too. But it just, but like what Haley was saying is, you know that one of the most important things about having that study group was, if you’re on the wrong track, they would reel you in and Haley you didn’t get that feedback, you know, that that’s pretty I mean, you’re amazing to be able to…

HM:  

Honestly, I felt I had classes, so I felt like I had no idea what was going on. And constitutional law, like the first semester of it, I my law school broken up into two semesters, I did not take the second semester. And the first semester was just commerce clause, and all sorts of an equal protection type stuff. And I did not understand any of it like the entire term. And I kind of gave up I was like, You know what, I’m probably going to get a C in this class, if I’m lucky, at this point, or because I feel like I’m a like curve, you’re like, if I get a C that just means like I tried, right? Because I feel like what most people don’t realize is you have to actively try to fail at law school. Like you have to actively try. You have to get into a final and not right and you fail. A lot of people don’t know this, but you have to actively try to fail. So I don’t mean that to be mean or anything or say law schools easy or hard or not. I mean, it is that they don’t that for you to fail, it has to be pretty obvious that you either wrote nothing or you truly didn’t care. Right. So going through karma. I was like, Okay, I care enough to do well. I know I could do something. And I know what the terms mean. I just don’t understand it. 100% and I was trying to understand it. I’m like, you know what, I could do this and I just remember writing a lot of words on the final. And somehow that worked. I don’t know what I wrote. I wrote words. And and that’s what I can tell you about

LB:  

Due process. 

HM:  

Due Process, equal protection. Amendments. I wish… interstate commerce. There you go. The Lochran decision was still bad. I don’t remember what I wrote. And it worked. And then there’s classes that I felt like I didn’t know what I was doing, that I did very well in. And it was so arbitrary. And most of law school is very arbitrary. And I think for neurodivergent students, especially, that’s really difficult thinking that you like you will go to an exam, you’ll think you did your absolute best work, and you wrote a masterpiece, and that you knew property law inside and out, and then grades will come back and you’ll be like, how did I get to see? 

LB:  

Look, that happened to me. I mean, that that that that happened to me were the classes where I thought I did the worst, I did the best. And the classes where I thought I did the best or the worst. Yep. It is arbitrary.

HM:  

Because I know we’re kind of bashing the institution of law school, we refocus on something a little bit more positive. So did you have any moments in law school where you felt affirmed? Or that you felt accepted? Or you had that kind of autistic joy?

MA:  

Yeah, absolutely. Um, like I said, I think when I was doing things that really were my special interests, particularly, so anything having to do with like, researching or writing briefs, I just, I just love research and writing to be Mito. Um, it was just so nice. Like I was on Moot Court, which was a great experience. Um, I know you did Law Review, Haley. Um, so I, you can probably relate that, like, it’s just really fun to be able to thrive in that environment, and be able to really put out a great product. And in a way, it’s nice, because, you know, with new cord, especially, like you’re meeting actual judges and attorneys. And even if my social skills were weaker, I was kind of networking through the fact that, like, my writing was so strong, so they would notice my writing. So it was, it was a nice way for me to stand out in my own way.

HM:  

I love it. I had a couple autistic joy moments in law school, too. So probably the first time I felt really accepted by my peers is my campus had an honor society for people who were really involved in public service. And it was basically invitation only to get kind of that you had to apply and they had to vote on like letting you in. And I got accepted my one all year, and very few one always got accepted to this. And they had kind of like, an initiation kind of tradition. And it wasn’t that you meant you had to sign a waiver, that it wasn’t hazing or anything. But it was like ritual that went back, like 50 or 60 years or something. And the President of the society at orientation comes up to me goes, Hey, these are some sensory experiences that we might that you might have during initiation. If you don’t feel comfortable with this, please let us know. It’s not a big deal. You don’t have to participate or anything, just let us know. Or if you’re okay with that, and it really meant because part of it, you were part of it, you’re blindfolded, I think for maybe like, a couple minutes. And they were concerned that might be something that was that could be very overwhelming for me. And it really meant a lot that they asked that question. And you’re thoughtful. And after I graduated, because I still am evolved as an alum, the entire initiation process actually got completely revamped, because of accessibility and other disabled law students made a point of how can we make this as enjoyable and accessible for everybody? And it passed unanimously, there was no question that accessibility needed to be at the forefront for this event. And it was just really special to see that kind of shift from even when I was invited to seeing it just become, yeah, we might still have this slight blindfolding, but it’s optional, or we’re gonna make sure that where you are that you are aware of your surroundings, even if you have something covering your eyes, like it was just very thoughtful.

I thought that was really cool about law school. And like you Mikhaela, I did, I did not do moot court because I was scared to argue in front of judges and not know what to expect. Largely because I felt like I didn’t have to be a social. And I also just like to research and write. And I got to dive into things that I found really, really interesting, kind of like special interest. So mine was actually about how standardized tests are discriminatory against disabled students. I actually wrote about the offset and after I graduated, I wrote about how the bar and the bar admissions process as a whole really does put a disparate impact on disabled students from asking questions about your mental health, right to making you get accommodations to denying and approving accommodations kind of willy nilly to even financial barriers on the bar exam, because it’s expensive to take that let alone take a prep class, like it’s an expensive time. And, and most of the time, you can’t work, because studying is your job. So it’s an expensive time.

LB:  

It really is

HM:  

With no income. So I really do think that there’s so much in legal education and a profession that really is rooted in ableism. And it’s really difficult to navigate. But I really did want to highlight that you probably also had that joy, because there are so many parts of this profession and even law school that are pretty rewarding.

MA:  

Yeah, it’s really rewarding. And I love what I do. And I really, I love that I went to law school. Um, and it’s funny you say that about moot court. Um, the reason I thrived was because you know, the judges a lot of times would purposely make like facial expressions to try to throw people off. Since I can’t read faces.

LB:  

A super power there. 

HM:  

It didn’t throw you off.

MA:  

I love what you said, though, Haley about them telling you the sensory experience. I think that should be something that workplaces conferences, yes, things like that should just automatically do so that, um, you’re not faced with having to disclose necessarily to the right. People, you don’t even know if that’s just the normal thing, then everyone just knows ahead of time. Exactly. You know, for example, I was just at a CLE. And it was nerve wracking because, you know, I didn’t know anyone I, I wasn’t going to disclose to a random strangers I had just met. Um, and it was hard because you know, you’re networking, and then you see, you’re at a networking event the next night, maybe hours later. And because I can’t recognize faces very well, you know, there would be times where like, I wouldn’t recognize someone I had met hours before. And things like that just cause such anxiety. So if there was a way to just make it, so everyone’s wearing name tags all the time, or just very simple things where you don’t necessarily have to know who is neurodivergent or anything like that, but just makes it easier for everybody. From the get go.

HM:  

Yes, even if you just put something super obvious, like I know how a lot of videos will have warnings if they’re strobe lights or things like that, or events, if they’re strobe lights, just like for people with epilepsy or other like photo sensitivities as well. Like just make these things normal, normalize sensory experiences and letting people know that they might exist.

LB:  

Right. And then and then, you know, everybody’s sensitive to it. It doesn’t have to be an A combination. It’s just this is how we do it like, you know, for everybody.

HM:  

Exactly. I love this. 

LB:  

We can solve all the problems in the world.

HM:  

We really can. And I hope that I hope that this conversation was kind of enlightening for people who are law curious. Because I know that there’s so many young people and autistic people who want to go into the field, and they’re afraid of all the barriers. And I know that it’s a difficult balance for us to be honest about those barriers to access that we face and within the profession. But also let you know that it’s doable. And I you Unfortunately, sometimes have to really be a strong self advocate for yourself and others, but I think culture in law schools on has honestly changed since Mikayla and I graduated to, because there’s now the National Disabled Law Students Association. And a lot of campuses are having chapters of that. And it’s really powerful to see kind of the shift that didn’t exist while we were in law school.

MA:  

There’s non traditional ways to get there too.

HM:  

Absolutely. There’s so many more resources that didn’t exist right before 2018 or so.

LB:  

Right.  And there’s so many great things that you can do as an advocate and a lawyer, for people that want to go into it. They’re just, you know, there’s so many great avenues and and, you know, like Michaela is not in a courtroom, but writing briefs or during compliance. A there’s just so many different ways to get involved and to feel like you have a purpose and you’re doing something that you’re passionate about and making a difference. 

HM:  

Absolutely. And I think that’s the perfect note to start wrapping this conversation up about legal and Mikhaela, I know our guests are not our guests, our audience, I’m sorry, our audience will adore you if they don’t already. How can they follow you and find out more about you?

MA:  

Absolutely. I’m you can find all the information about me and what I do at edgeoftheplayground.com. I’m also on Facebook and Twitter under @edgeoftheplayground, so you can find me online that way.

HM:  

That is so awesome. And thank you again, Michaela for joining us. As for the rest of us, be sure to check out different brains.org and check out their Twitter and Instagram @DiffBrains. And don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me, I can be found at Haleymoss.net or Haleymoss.co. I know I got a new website. It’s pretty exciting. And you can find me on social media. So I’m @Haley.moss on Instagram and Haley moss are on Facebook and Twitter. And if you want to read more about lawyers, legal, professional, etc. I have a brand new book out called “Great Minds Think Differently: Neurodiversity for Lawyers and Other Professionals”.

LB:  

I love that title every time you say it, I can be I can be found at CFIexperts.com, please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes and don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going. Great job everybody. Thank you so much, Michaela. Thank you for having me. I always thank you with all of you. It’s our pleasure. It’s so

HM:  

hard not to just it’s it’s kind of tempting sometimes to just really bash legal because they really suck at some of this stuff. to toe the line. Me too. I’m like they but but the bar exam pit should be abolished forever that I’m not willing to toe the line on. Yeah, I agree. If the bar exam fire of 1000 suns I’m sorry. The bar exam is the absolute worst I still have nightmares about it is. Yeah, it’s really bad. abolish it forever,

LB:  

forever and ever. Alright. great weekend.

HM:  

Have a great weekend, everybody. Thank you so much. Hi everyone. I

Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.