Diversity in Medical School, with BUSM’s Angelique Harris, PhD, MA | EDB 279

 

BUSM’s Associate Dean of Diversity & Inclusion Dr. Angelique Harris discusses her work ending stigma in higher education.

Dr. Angelique C. Harris is Associate Dean for Diversity and Inclusion at Boston University School of Medicine and is an Associate Professor in General Internal Medicine, in the Department of Medicine. They also serve as the Executive Director of Faculty Development for Boston University Medical Campus. Dr. Harris works to design, implement, and lead innovative programs and initiatives aimed at providing and promoting more equitable learning and working environments for faculty, staff, and students around issues of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, and justice. An applied medical sociologist, Dr. Harris’s areas of research include race and ethnicity, gender and sexualities, health and illness, social movements, cultural studies, urban studies, and media studies. More specifically, they examine how groups construct health issues and how the structural marginalization and stigmatization they experience impact their experiences with health care. Dr. Harris has authored and co-authored dozens of books, articles, and essays, including Womanist AIDS Activism in the United States: “It’s Who We Are” (Roman & Littlefield, 2022), Queer People of Color: Connected but Not Comfortable (Lynne Rienner, 2018) and the Intersections of Race and Sexuality (Palgrave Macmillan, 2017) book series.

For more about Dr. Harris’ work:

https://www.bumc.bu.edu/medicine/profile/angelique-harris/

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Angelique-Harris 

 

 

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FULL TRANSCRIPTION


HACKIE REITMAN, MD (HR):  

Hi, I’m Dr. Hackie Reitman. Welcome to another episode of Exploring Different Brains. And today I have the honor of interviewing Dr. Angelique Harris, who’s got about six different titles at Boston University. The one we like today is the Dean of Diversity and Inclusion and a couple of other things there. And I can’t wait to hear all about the background and what led Dr. Angelique Harris to where she is today. Welcome, Dr. Harris, can you give a good introduction of yourself that really tells people what’s going on because I butchered it and I apologize.

ANGELIQUE HARRIS PhD, MA (AH):  

No problem at all. I totally understand the titles thing is kind of funny. So I am the Associate Dean of Diversity and Inclusion at the School of Medicine. I am also an Associate Professor in the Department of Medicine and the General Internal Medicine section. And I’m also Executive Director of Faculty Development and for Boston University Medical Campus. By training, I’m actually a medical sociologist, and most of my work in my research examines the ways in which marginalized communities experience health, wellness, support, community, I also look at a variety of other things interesting about health and wellness, like social movements, families, I do a lot of work in LGBTQ communities, and things along those lines. And so I basically like to study just community among groups and populations and how it influences their sense of wellness.

HR:  

So you’re champion of the underdog and those of us who are marginalized.

AH:  

Basically, yeah.

HR:  

Well, there’s a lot of us, there’s a lot of us. When did you first decide to take the pathway you’ve taken?

AH:  

Alright, so I think going way back, I think the pathway into sociology or the pathway, or any kind of studying what I’m studying, so going way back, when, back when I was an undergrad, I went to UMass Boston. And at the time, I wanted to go into law enforcement, interestingly enough, and be in the FBI, and actually be a forensic psychologist, and profile serial killers. That was actually what I wanted to do. And I had a professor who was really adamantly against that she really encouraged me to, she kept saying, you know, you just study sociology and be a sociology professor, which I thought was pretty funny. And I’m like, No, why would I do that. And so long story short, ended up doing that. But I ended up getting really interested in health, specifically, because I was a teaching assistant for a course on HIV and AIDS and society. And one of the interesting things about that course was that it really highlighted and emphasize people participating in risk taking behaviors, and this was in the 90s. So the very late 90s. So things, you know, times a little bit different, then, but there’s been the risk taking behaviors and, and a lot of stuff that was discussed in classes, very stigmatizing. And having known a lot of people and being part of the LGBT community, and knowing a lot of people who were HIV positive, or who were just, you know, gay men and bisexual men, that it was the stuff that they were saying was a little bit problematic. And so I when I discuss this with a teacher, who was really open to having me even teach a couple of sections of the class, which was great. And so I started getting much more interested. And the fact that in essence, different people experience the world very differently, exactly as you’re saying with Different Brains, you know, that like, and then and then people’s experiences, all of this will determine how they behave, how they interact with others, etc. And so quite often, those who are teaching courses, or who are doing the research, don’t really understand the experiences of those who are living, you know, or experiencing certain problems or trials or challenges, etc. And so they quite often take it as if it’s some sort of deficiency on the person, when, in reality, this person’s adapting to the challenges that they have. It’s not – and so they’re stigmatizing people unnecessarily. And this is one of the things that I find so fascinating with data and when you’re looking at HIV, but I started looking at other things in terms of just like other health related issues, that were stigmatizing everything from obesity and such where, you know, how do we determine what’s considered normal, how we determine what’s considered running wrong cetera. And a lot of that is all socially and culturally constructed. Whereas in at a certain point in time, a group of people decided this is what we want. This is what we like, this is what’s normal. And this is what we’re going to encourage and it’s and this is what we have in society. So it’s so that’s basically what I study is in essence, like that process, how we come to understand that and the influence that it has on people and particularly health and wellness within different populations.

HR:  

In your experience, what would you say is the biggest problem, the biggest roadblock to inclusion and diversity?

AH:  

Stigma, I think is the biggest. It’s somebody this strange– So Erving Goffman, who’s a sociologist, I had wrote this book called stigma notes on the management of spoiled identity. And it was like the book on stigma came out in ’69. But anyhow, one of the things he talked about was that we’re all being held up to this person that doesn’t exist. This like quite often and even Audre Lorde talked about this as well as a black feminist theorists where we’re held up to this like: a white, straight cisgender guy who’s tall, but not too tall, muscular, but not too muscular, college educated, but not because basically, he’s Christian. He’s so specific that this person doesn’t exist.

HR:  

Statistically, there is no average. There’s no average. I’m sorry to interrupt.

AH:  

No, no, but that’s the point exactly, is that the we’re holding up, we all — there’s so many people in society, our society are holding everybody up to this weird standard, that doesn’t really exist. And so as a result, everybody in some way, shape or form is stigmatized, or feel some form of like, some people are privileged in some way. So people are oppressed in other ways, but we all feel stigmatized in some way, shape or form, no matter how privileged we think we are. 

HR:  

And if we extrapolate that to the educational and employment platforms, we say that the employers have been, for instance, in the educational institutions, focusing on these different people for the weak points, instead of focusing on the strength saying, “Boy, this person is – just as an example – a math wizard, he’d be great in our engineering school”, instead “he doesn’t read so good”, you know? I don’t know. 

AH:  

Yep. No, and this is why this is so important, and why like nowadays is so great, with people having a better understanding and respect appreciation for the fact that people are different, that we have a diversity of brains and bodies of ways that we approach problems of all these different things. And as opposed to trying to force people into the ways in which really, very few people think or behave, which is what we do as a society, we’re now having a better appreciation for the fact that people think differently, people interact and engage with people differently. And so and we also importantly, were able to learn a lot from people who think differently and engage differently. And we’re able to have influence with everything from research, teaching, as well. And we’ll be able to be much more innovative and such.

HR:  

Now, you’ve, you’ve worked at undergraduate institutions and graduate institutions. As an alumnus of the, which I was lucky enough to get into the sixth year medical program at Boston University, I got to experience undergrad there and for a couple of years, and then grad. And thank goodness, they accepted me because I had been expelled in the first grade and a 10th grade, but it wasn’t a bad kid. But is there a difference for you? Which do you prefer? Did you prefer the undergraduate or now that you’re in the graduate milieu? Is there any difference? And do you prefer one over the other?

AH:  

Yeah, it’s not really even a preference as much as it is like a pretty extreme difference in terms of, for me, I feel like the impact that I’m able to have. So in those regards, I actually prefer being at the graduate level, because you’re working with faculty, students, who are directly engaged in communities, with students and teaching students, which is awesome, you know, you’re teaching them and working with them, but a lot of them, they go into graduate school, medical school, you know, there’s still a whole good 7, 8, 10 year before they really get into the real world, that other education they’re getting, but at this point, what I really like is that you’re getting them kind of when they’re thinking about how to apply what they’ve learned in the real world into their either their medical practice or their research and you’re working with faculty who are helping students thinking in those regards. So it’s, I really like it a lot. And also it feels as if, like I was saying that the the impact feels much more direct and a graduate at this level than it did when I was undergraduate. However, I didn’t learn a lot at the undergraduate level. So everything about neurodivergencey, about differences in the ways in which people interact, engage the variety of people services support are so much better quite often at undergraduate institutions, and having been at so many different institutions throughout the country, I got to see the different types of services and support and the ways in which students and people are treated, how we interact with different people. And so its interesting now being at the graduate level, seeing that it’s a lot of the support and the services. And the perception is actually very different at this level, versus at the undergraduate level, because we have so much more diversity at the undergraduate level compared to this, and the stigmas are a little bit different inside at the graduate level, and so it’s really fascinating. So I was able to take a lot of what I learned at the undergraduate level, and it’s been really helpful being able to apply here at the medical school.

HR:  

Well, what do you feel is the biggest thing we can do to help decrease or eliminate the stigma of being different?

AH:  

I think definitely, it’s really thinking about education overall. And thinking, and this is the problem as the whole, because we’ve all like, you know, K through 12, and we’ve got college and beyond. And what’s been really nice is that in K through 12, we’re doing a much, much, much better job of working with kids who think differently, who learn differently, which is absolutely wonderful. The problem is that we kind of need to get up there at the college level in the particularly the medical school, graduate level, etc. And part of the challenge is that a lot of our faculty and a lot of people aren’t simply just trained, or aware of the differences in how students learn at the K through 12. Because you have, because they’re trained teachers, they’re learning these things, they’re getting trained in these things. So it’s very different. When you’re looking at college, college. I mean, they call us professors for a reason. I mean, we’re not trained teachers, where we’re trained researchers, we work to do a lot of teaching we really try to teach we love teaching, a lot of us do take a lot of programs and courses and education and you know, things like that, because we really care about teaching. But in the end, our training really is about either patient care, or conducting research, etc. And so you don’t really have that same level of understanding of the differences in terms of how people learn, and what are best practices. So really, I think a lot of it will be training, faculty training, in administration in different institutions, so that people have a good understanding of what the challenges that students have, but also not just students, because we need to be aware of to that our students are graduating, they’re becoming our faculty, they are becoming our staff, they are becoming like our colleagues, and such, and they already are colleagues, really, and so we have a lot of faculty colleagues who already have may think differently, learning, you know, differences and such. And so we know, we need to make sure that we talk more about it, that we have more of a culture where people are able to disclose and discuss this. And so that is something where it’s seen as just, I mean, this actually is normal, of having different brains as normal. And so we need to do much more effort of normalizing that so really, a lot of it is education, education and training.

HR:  

Do you find that you are — the different institutions in universities like, say, in Boston, where you have more universities than anywhere in the world maybe, are you guys collaborating with each other? Or as you pretty separate? How does it work up there?

AH:  

I find it pretty separate in certain regards. Because the institution, particularly a school, like B was so big, I mean, we got thirty something thousand students, I mean, it’s a massive school, and something like 10,000 faculty or something. So he has this amazing faculty says isn’t really big institution. And it’s like a little town. And so it’s so a lot of it is even trying to collaborate within the institution itself is a challenge between and we have three campuses. So there’s that. 

HR:  

Then there’s politics, let’s not forget politics.

AH:  

Oh the politics are on all of that. Exactly. And so, but there definitely does need to be some sort of, and I would really welcome that. And that, I think is a great idea, much more collaboration in regards of thinking about what universities as a whole can do, to try to really bring more attention to this and really address the needs of students. I think universities are doing a much better job. It’s more so at the graduate level, I think is where a lot of difficulties come in. And exactly as Ali was mentioning, that, you know, he was afraid to disclose having ADHD like it’s, this is the culture that we have, our people are afraid to disclose that and, you know, and then ends up in a weird way further stigmatizing because people aren’t understanding how common it is.

HR:  

It’s, it is it’s hard to hard to get over the hump, but once it gets embraced, which depends on how much you’re educating the particular audience, you know, like pediatricians get zero training and autism is one example. You know? It’s amazing I gave the first Have a lecture, the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons on neurodiversity and yet, you know, half of their patients you’re treating it, you have to do it, you have to connect. And, and what happens? You know? So it’s tough stuff. But we have to start somewhere. And I think that that communication is key. How can our audience – who might be listening to this on our podcast or watching it on a video or reading it as a transcription – how can they learn more about your work?

AH:  

More about my work?

HR:  

More about your work and you.

AH:  

More about me – I got a, because of BU profiles, we’ve got that have a short description and my bio was up there, a lot of my diversity DEIA work is up there, diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility work is up there, as well. And I actually have a number of my books are actually available in libraries, including the Boston Public Library and places like that. 

HR:  

Have any of them with you to hold up to the camera? Tell us the names of these books.

AH:  

It is “Womanist AIDS Activism in the United States: ‘It’s Who We Are'”. And this book is actually looks at and examines activism and the ways in which black women have worked to address aids, education, awareness, provide resources, within communities, so much resource research focuses on this the high rates of HIV among black women and talk about how, you know, things are so horrible, etc. But they don’t really emphasize what are people doing to enact change. And that’s really what a lot of my work does, is focused on that and actually have quite a few things… Here was one we’re looking at it but not comfortable and where people of color. And this is looking at the role that community plays within that the community plays within queer communities and the role that just, you know, having a sense of networks and support and how that helps people heal, and also the role that discrimination and a lack of support plays on people, I also have books on writing and AIDS and black churches and things. So quite a few projects.

HR:  

Oh boy. You’re not busy enough I don’t think. Speaking about the LGBTQ+, what what guesstimate would you have about from your unique position and doesn’t make you right, but it means you have a unique position. And aspects of everything going on – What would you estimate the incidence frequency what however, we want to define it in the population of people who would might identify as LGBTQ plus transgender, you know, add them all up, what might you think?

AH:  

It’s, it’s definitely varies based on generation, which is why it’s really hard to estimate and guesstimate, because when you’re looking at people from the traditionalists or baby boomers, the numbers are much lower. But if you’re looking at or like, you know, for example, Generation Z and the millennials, it’s significantly higher, so much, so we’re assuming a quarter of the population in some a third of the population for youth. And so it’s really high. And so we’re thinking that a lot of it is that is, that is extremely prominent, and same sex attraction is it goes on a continuum, and it’s very fluid for a lot of people. And so as a result, some people may identify at some points in their life as being queer in one way, shape, or form. And on the point, they may not, some people make me feel more comfortable coming out as opposed to others. A lot of it depends on that part of the country, you were raised in a culture you were raised in. And so we even know that a lot of that same sex behaviors in terms of actual activity like same sex, sexual activity is actually much more common among men, for example, who many who don’t identify themselves as being bisexual or strict? So it’s when you’re looking at behavior versus identity and all these other things versus relationships. You have people who are every There was even one study report that was, you know, at a certain point I think we’re doing in the 90s. I think they were doing their research where that most lesbians had been married to and I think, in that particular study had been married to men at a particular point in time. And so it’s, you know, a lot of it is, you know, just the time people’s level of comfort and being able to come out and now particularly as generations, progress and more young people feel more comfortable and stuff and I think it’s going to be much more calm. minimum numbers are going to go up. But if you look at Kinsley efficacy, the Kinsey study that was 10% of the population, argue so he said the Venetians, 10% was completely straight 10% was completely and everybody else in the middle and we’re in some way, shape or form, kind of bisexual continuum. So there’s that theory as well.

HR:  

It seems like everything’s a spectrum just like our brains.

AH:  

It is. And this is the thing is that we tried so hard for so long to put people into different categories and say, You’re just this, you’re just that you’re that. But now as a society, we’re just so nice. Were beginning to really appreciate the diversity of people, if it’s the diversity of sexualities, and identities, the diversity and how people think, and how people interact with each other and approach problems, the differences in body types and such. So yeah.

HR:  

Is there anything you’d like to discuss that we have not covered today?

AH:  

I think — thinking about the role of medicine, and what people in medicine and biomedical research can do to reduce the stigmas we talked about it, I think, but I think we could talk about a little bit more, I think is, is in terms of like everything from trainings that they can maybe do or participate in readings that they could participate in, and also, importantly, thinking about ways to try to encourage their students to disclose more if there is a problem or with colleagues, if they might have a challenge, or we just want to work as an institution, like, you know, how can institutions work to create a culture where people feel particularly when you’re looking at the Health Sciences and the academic health sciences, it’s not one because of this area, but to also because we produce the researchers we produce the doctors, we produce the people that are studying this. And so if we’re having an issue within our own area, talking about it, approaching it, providing resources, how are we going to be able to do that in our own research for our patients, etc. So, I think coming up with really good concrete ways and steps that academic health centers we servitor etcetera, could come up with to try to reduce these stigmas would be a great way to kind of continue on with the discussion. 

HR:  

That is very well said. I think as Elie Wiesel said the best disinfectant for darkness is light. Well, it’s been a pleasure to talk to you, I hope you’ll come back and join us another time, we’ll communicate by email also. Is there one piece of advice you’d give someone out there who wants to be a doctor, but worries, they can’t do it because they’re neurodivergent?

AH:  

They can’t do it? Still go for it, the only person telling you that you can’t do something is you. So if you don’t apply, or you don’t go into anything, you’re definitely not going to get it anyway. No one is telling you that you can do it, there’s not going to be an admissions guy, no one’s going to say because you are no divergent. You can’t go into that. It’s, it’s, I hate to say that it’s in you. It’s stigmatized, we understand that. But there’s a certain point where we can’t let the stigmas really influence how we, how we approach our dreams, what we want to do with our life, etc. So go for it.

HR:  

What can we as a society do to help reduce the stigma?

AH:  

I think as a society, we can realize that we are all different, and that the standard that we’re held up to doesn’t really exist, in essence. And so I think it’s by being much more open and appreciative of the fact that we all have different and unique experiences, worldviews, cultures, identities, and we have our own little stories in our head, about like the little ghost story in our little movie of our world in our head. And we need to really appreciate that we everybody has their own story, their own life and reasons for doing things. And that we really need to appreciate the diversity that people have and give people the benefit of the doubt.

HR:  

Dr. Angelique Harris, thank you so much for being with us here at Different Brains. We hope to have you back keep up your great work as the Dean of Diversity and Inclusion at Boston University School of Medicine, and all the other research and work hats you’re wearing on. Keep up the great work. Thank you so much.

AH:  

Thank you so much I really appreciate it