Neurodiversity-Affirming Student Support, with Katrina Martin, Ph.D. | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 126
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IN THIS EPISODE:
(29 minutes) In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts speak with Katrina Martin Ph.D.. Katrina is the founder of Bridges Learning System. After years of working within and on behalf of the education system, Katrina believes that true education reform is paramount. She contends that now is the time to remove the antiquated paradigm of educating neurodivergent students through a deficit lens, and in it’s place adopt a neurodiversity affirming model of education for all students. Katrina founded Bridges with the belief that bringing together the autistic community and those who work on their behalf can change the world, one student, one family, and one educator at a time.
For more about Bridges Learning System: https://bridgeslearningsystem.com/
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com
Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:
HALEY MOSS (HM):
Hello, and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Haley Moss, and attorney, author, artist, and I’m also autistic. I’m joined here by my co host, who you always had the pleasure of talking with every week as well. And I’m gonna let her take the reins today.
DR LORI BUTTS (LB):
Good morning. I’m Dr. Laurie butts. I’m an attorney and a psychologist.
HM:
How are you doing?
LB:
Good, how about yourself?
HM:
I’m good. I’m kind of just hanging in there. It’s just time seems to be fine.
LB:
Yeah, right. We’re almost, we’re almost like through the first quarter of the year, it’s pretty. Things are moving pretty quickly, especially with busy schedules and all kinds of stuff going on. It just seems to fly by.
HM:
I feel like this is just the busiest I’ve ever been. I think that’s the problem is we’re figuring out going back in person and then not being in person. I’m just busy. And I don’t know if I like that. Like, I like having what to do and having a sense of purpose. But it feels like the days just get longer and longer.
LB:
Yeah, yeah, that’s pretty typical. I mean, I’ve we’ve talked about this before, but the more responsibilities and the older you get, the faster time flies. They days are packed and full of stuff, and it just keeps going. So it’s important to take good care of yourself.
HM:
I feels like we do get more responsibilities as we get older. And it’s kind of frustrating.
LB:
It is so you got to you got to know what you can manage and what’s not manageable and figure all that out.
HM:
We’re excited to bring someone new to us. And you today, are you excited.
LB:
I’m very excited.
HM:
We are welcoming Katrina Martin today. And Katrina is the founder of Bridges Learning System, after years working within and on behalf of the education system. Katrina believes that true education reform is paramount. She contends that now’s the time to remove the antiquated paradigm of educating neurodivergent students through a deficit lens, and its plate and in its place, adopt a neurodiversity affirming model of education for all students. Katrina founded Bridges with the belief that bringing together the Autistic community, and those who work on their behalf can change the world, one student, one family, and one educator at a time. Welcome to the show!
KATRINA MARTIN (KM):
Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.
HM:
Thank you for being here with us today. And what you’re doing sounds absolutely incredible. So can you start us off by sharing how you became involved in the neurodivergent? Community?
KM:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I, myself am neurodivergent. I’m dyslexic. I’m also the parent of three neurodivergent kids. And I really began this journey in a fairly traditional way, going through a masters and a PhD and a postdoc program, all that were very steeped in ableist assumptions and deficit based thinking about neuro divergence. And it wasn’t really, I never really agreed with these models, but didn’t have the words for an alternative. And so finally, at the beginning of last year, I had the opportunity to start a new and started bridges learning system and felt like I could finally create a program for autistic neurodivergent youth that really met the goals that I was hoping for, and really lifts the characteristics and the strengths found in the neurodivergent community, rather than focusing on remediating perceived deficits. So that’s that’s how I got started really excited that we have been doing this for about a year now. And it’s been a great journey.
LB:
Can you tell us about the bridges learning system about this?
KM:
Yeah, absolutely. So. So we are a small group of primarily neurodivergent folks who have created a curricula, it’s a social emotional, learning curricula that does not teach social skills. And will, I think, talk a little bit more about Social Skills later. But basically, what we do try to teach is we start really with validating individual differences. So really thinking about that there’s more than one “right way” to be and really highlighting for autistic and neurodivergent kids that whatever way They interact, behave, communicate, always are really the right way. And so we really validate that, and then we work to build bridges of understanding. So we do know that due to the double empathy problem, autistic and neurodivergent, people and neurotypical people often have trouble understanding one another, it’s a two way street. And so what we do is we work with kind of both sides, we work with the neurotypical people around the neurodivergent students, as well as the neurodivergent student themselves to really learn to understand what it is that the other person is, is trying to communicate. And it’s really all about validating these different needs and different styles of communications, to improve the social interactions across neuro type. So what we have is a 40 week curriculum. It’s used by speech language pathologists, occupational therapists, and mental health providers. It’s done once a week in generally like a clinic setting either one to one or in a small group. And the the curriculum takes children into this very magical world of insight sprites, where all of the characters are neurodivergent, and takes them through these stories where they have the opportunity to really see see the strengths of neuro divergence, and really have that validation occur, as they see themselves represented in this media. And then we go through discussion questions after each of the activities, where they have the opportunity to talk about how these, these ideas really relate to their world and their lives. So it’s, it’s a really nice way of not having to, you know, directly inquire to people and to these students, you know, what is it that you need? What are your ways? Instead, they naturally find them in the curriculum, and it gives them the opportunity to talk about them. Without that, that pointed pressure. So, so that’s what we have. And we’re really, really excited to share it with the world.
HM:
I think that’s extremely cool. And I’m glad that you’re sharing and something that you mentioned is that you have a team that is also largely neurodivergent, as well, and how did you all come together?
KM:
So I started, really by saying, I want to step away from what it is that I have been taught, recognizing that what I was hearing from the artistic and neurodivergent communities was telling me, you know, what I was taught in school was not right. And so I started by just seeking out autistic and neurodivergent talent, and was incredibly lucky. Just incredibly lucky about the people who walked through my my virtual door. And so, yeah, that the team came together, we have an artistic content creator, an artistic illustrator, who also has done a lot of creating the Insight sprite world, we call her the Insight sprite architect. And then, we also partnered with the Autistic community. So we created surveys and did focus groups, where we really asked autistic and neurodivergent adults, what is it that you think we should include? And we heard, as you might expect, a lot of things that, that were counter to what neurotypical folks said, you know, these are social emotional skills that everybody should know. And that’s not that’s not the community’s preference. So we really, were able to create a curricula that we truly believe meets those needs of the community.
LB:
It sounds like this is a 40 hour week curriculum. What about would the next steps be trying to integrate this into the traditional education curriculum or because it sounds? Sounds really wonderful, I guess. What are your thoughts about about that?
KM:
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the core tenants of our company is that we don’t believe that the onus of change should be on the neurodivergent child. We want to support that child as they navigate a world that wasn’t designed for them. But really where change needs to occur is with our neurotypical understandings and acceptance of diversity in ways of thinking and being. So, you know, 100%, our long term, maybe even medium term goal is really to get this into, ideally, the public school system where, you know, neurotypical, and neurodivergent, kids are sitting side by side, learning together. And together learning to validate that there isn’t just one way of doing things. And I think that’s really where we have the opportunity to create a future for our artistic and neurodivergent students as they become adults, to enter into a world that has more understanding, and more acceptance and more recognition of the strengths that those students and eventually those adults bring to their community. So right now, in the public school system, there is often like a social emotional curriculum that’s done in the traditional classroom. It generally teaches things like, you know, there’s one way to listen, and this is what it looks like, there’s one way to, to have a conversation. And this is what it looks like. And so we really want to challenge those notions for neurotypical kids and offer something new. At the same time, we know that it will take a while to get into the public schools, just the bureaucracy of it working within that system is a challenge for sure. And so we are right now working kind of more in the private sector as we get our sea legs so to speak. And then eventually, we’ll, we’ll definitely transition into that space.
LB:
I mean, can only benefit everyone, what you’re saying, I mean, it, it’s just a win win all the way around. I mean, even in, I’ve always understood that everyone learns very differently, regardless of whether they’re neurotypical or divergent. And so education has always needed, in my opinion, is always needed to expand the ways in which we, you know, give information, expect people to regurgitate information and learn. It’s just, it never, the traditional education model never made a lot of sense to me. Even though I was good at it. I mean, I have two doctorate degrees. So clearly, it’s something that I my brain works well in, but, but it still never made a whole lot of sense to expect everybody to be able to kind of do this cookie cutter education model. And so I really, this is wonderful to hear, and I hope, hope very much that it catches on as quickly as it should, because it’s, it’s it’s important for everyone.
HM:
Oh, for sure, I think it is too. And when talk about that cookie cutter model, it definitely has so many barriers. And I also have a documentary, like you mentioned, and I had that same problem where it’s like, this doesn’t always have me in mind. So I think what I want to ask as well is, this is all wonderful. And how do we get people to buy into this idea of reform? And really, teaching this as a start with our teachers that start with parents doesn’t start with everybody? How do we actually get this done?
KM:
Yeah, it’s a good question. I think, I think each group of stakeholders is going to come to a place of wanting to be neurodiversity forming from a different direction. So for parents, I think, and I’ll speak for myself here as a parent of three neurodivergent. Kids, you hear often, all the things that your child struggles with all the things that they they quote, can’t do and where they are, where they’re deficient. And so going to a neurodiversity affirming model, as a parent, to me opens up a lot of possibility to think about my kid as I actually think about them, which is, as these amazing little humans who have all of these things that they can do, that are so great. And so I think for parents, when we really appeal to that sense of, you know, what is it that you actually want for your kids? Most parents will say, I want them to be happy. I want them to feel good about who they are. And that’s really where the neurodiversity model comes in. It allows an acceptance of validation of being whoever you are and support for being that person within this wide world.
LB:
And feeling successful, you know, I mean, and that’s the important piece, right? Feeling success, feeling accomplished, feeling confident. That’s how you get self worth. And that’s how, you know, feel good about yourself and keep those positive, reinforcing things in your life for the future. And there’s so many. Anyway, I could go on and on.
KM:
yeah, no, I totally agree. I think I think for for teachers, it’s it comes from a little bit of a different route. Because while you are invested in the child’s, you know, long term growth and happiness, you see it in a different way. And there are realities, when you’re a teacher that that can’t be denied, you know, you have a large class, you have a lot of kids. And so often, what the kind of social expectations in the classroom really revolve around our compliance. And no, absolutely, that that should not be the goal of any education is just to teach kids to be compliant with the people in power that are in their environment. But the realities of having that many students in your classroom means that that’s one way that that teachers are able to get through their day is when they have students kind of all falling in line. So when we’re talking to educators, and SLPs, we kind of have to come at it, as you know, really think about for your students, what is it that you that you really want from them? Do you want them to go into the world? You know, blindly doing what other people say to do? No, absolutely, that’s not what you want. You want to give them agency, you want to give them the ability to think through problems and come up with solutions. And all the while, get their needs met, so that they’re not going through these periods of autistic burnout and crisis, but are able to support their own needs and get those needs met while going through their day and through the school year.
HM:
Something I want to ask as well as because this is all so wonderful. And so necessary is how can we follow along with you and make sure we know what you’re up to as well?
KM:
Yeah, so we are working on becoming more and more active in social media. So you can find us on Instagram, Bridges Learning System. As well as that certainly through our website, we post blogs pretty regularly. As well as put out a lot of content via social media, Instagram, and Facebook, where we’re really talking about supporting educators, caregivers, and children using this neurodiversity affirming lens, and really breaking down some of the barriers that come from that formal education, and have created these ableist patterns of thinking in educators and, and really in, in all the adults in the world right now. And helping people work through those unpack that and understand that, no, not all kids do have to learn how to speak. Maybe that’s not their way of communicating. But yes, all kids do need a way to communicate their their wants and needs. So really, again, focusing on that ultimate goal of what it is that we’re trying to do for kids. So we have a lot of content that we’re putting out pretty regularly, in addition to the sea Bridge Program, which is the flagship program. We also ultimately want to bring the sea bridge to older kids and younger kids right now it’s primarily geared towards elementary age. But we have had a lot of requests for you know, what about our middle school kids and our high school kids, they really need something like this, as well as what about our preschoolers, they really need something like this. And then also, we want to create something that parents can access without having to go through a clinician of any sort that there are a lot of parents out there that are really craving these materials. And so we want to create something that really makes sense for home use as well.
HM:
That is absolutely wonderful and I want to transition a little bit as well because as we want, we are talking about how this actually is neurodiversity affirming. And a lot of it stems from also how a lot like we kind of are forced to learn social skills and how problematic social skills training and teaching can be. I’m not naming any products in particular or anything, but there’s a couple that come to mind, and that they’re typically not neurodiversity affirming, and essentially kind of encouraged us to act more neurotypical. I’m not sure how you feel about a lot of this.
KM:
Yeah, absolutely. So you know, a lot of the existing curriculum out there that works in the social realm for autistic and neurodivergent kids has focused on changing the patterns of natural social and communication behavior, from neurodivergent patterns, to ones that are more comfortable for neurotypical people. So things like eye gaze is a social skill that’s often worked on. And we know that force I gaze causes a lot of discomfort for a lot of autistic people. And so trying to change away from these social skills that encourage one right way of being to neurodiversity affirming lens means removing the expectations that all people interact in the same way and should interact in the same way. So yeah, there’s there are a lot of problems, in my opinion, in teaching social skills. At the same time, we know that all people really need support in the social arena, it’s helpful for people to, you know, have the ability to think about the social context that they’re in. And so we do our very best to ride the line between helping students understand that social context without encouraging them to change themselves to fit within that social context, instead, providing that bridge so that they can still be themselves and be in the social context.
HM:
That makes a lot of sense, I just were, I was just worried about autistic mental health. And I think that going into neurodiversity affirming way really just helps with that. I also feel like there’s something that came up that I saw a lot about how neurotypical social skills for us is kind of just like knowing a second language. And that kind of makes a lot more sense to me. But I also want to be encouraged to speak the language, I already know how to speak, let alone the one that I understand that some of the neurotypical things that they do, I have to understand why they do them, but it doesn’t mean I have to do them.
KM:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think trying to help kids understand why neurotypical people behave the way that they do. And there’s sometimes very unusual ways. Without saying it’s right, is really kind of the biggest challenge of being neurodiversity affirming, without saying, you know, this is why other people do this, and how other people do this. And at the same time, you know, not leaving out that, and your way of doing it is just as good. Because I think that’s where we really, if we forget that and if we don’t have the other half of that affirming message that, you know, your way is also good. That’s where we really do risk these mental health effects of, of autistic children really trying to change who they are to meet the expectations of the people around them. And it’s exhausting. You know, the more you are really trying to fit into that mold of who people you know, say you should be the more tired you get, the more spoons you use, and the sooner you’re going to not be able to function at all because you haven’t been allowed to, to function authentically.
So, you know, certainly helping kids know what’s happening around them. But not leaving it there. And I think that’s where some some of the other social skills curriculum really stop is, you know, let’s decode the social situation here. We’re going to help give you that in into what other people are thinking. But then stopping there and saying, Okay, so now you know, now you know what they’re thinking, which leaves this kind of hanging idea in the air of. So now you know how to think, you know how to how to interact. And you have to have that, that other piece that says, that’s how that’s how they do it, and that’s fine. But you can do it differently. This is how you do it. And that’s fine too. And they need to understand you they need to be able to decode, you know, your your behavior, your actions, as much or more than you need to be able to do theirs.
HM:
Do we have any thoughts definitely on neurotypical or just teaching autistic people social skills, and also how that can be problematic? Is there anything in particular that we think is really important that we might not have addressed today?
KM:
I think the only other thing maybe would be the kinds of goals, and how if we change the goals, it can allow us to, to really reframe what we’re expecting socially of people. So when we think about reframing goals, you know, one common example of goals that we hear often is about taking turns in conversation. And we know that one common autistic communication style is Mano tropism. And that takes time turns and communication isn’t always the best way to communicate with that person. And so, again, trying to find that place where both communicative partners can really understand where the other person is coming from, and make space for that. Taking away that goal of, you know, taking turns and really changing the goal so that it’s around both communicative partners, coming to that common understanding about the topic that that they’re talking about. There’s lots of different ways to achieve that, not just one. So I think for all the goals doing, you know, going through that process is really important.
HM:
I think that’s wonderful. And I think that’s such a positive note to help us and on as well. So please, definitely stay in touch with us. And for those of you who want to learn more about what Katrina and the Bridges Learning System is doing, please be sure to check them out on Instagram and visit their website. And keep that conversation moving in the right direction, because education reform should be for all of us, and having neurodiversity models of education benefits everybody. That’s for the rest of us. If you’re looking for us, be sure to check out different brains.org and check out their Twitter and Instagram @DiffBrains and don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me. I can be found at HaleyMoss.com or on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.
LB:
I can be found at CFIexperts.com. But please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes. And don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going.
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
