Elevating Neurodiverse Voices, with Neuroversity’s Jessica Kidwell | EDB 280
Jessica Kidwell of the Neuroversity Podcast discusses why listening to and highlighting the voices of neurodivergent self-advocates is so important.
From Jessica’s bio: “Jessica Kidwell has been a lot of things. A freelance writer, a preschool teacher, a government employee, a bartender, a waitress, a lifeguard, and most recently, a podcaster. She is the host of the brand new podcast, Neuroversity, a space to learn about and elevate the stories of the neuro-diverse community. She is also the co-host of the podcast We Should Talk About That, which aims to connect people by having hard conversations about uncomfortable topics in a vulnerable and safe way. She believes that you never know where life will lead you and that staying open to possibilities is the only way to live. When she is not editing a podcast, promoting a podcast, thinking about a podcast, prepping for a podcast, or long pausing in a podcast, she loves spending time with her family and friends, not being in charge of deciding what’s for dinner, and constantly searching for ways to get more ‘self care’ into her life. She is married to a Renaissance man and has two children who are already smarter and funnier than her.”
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HACKIE REITMAN MD (HR):
Hi, I’m Dr. Hackie Reitman. Welcome to another episode of Exploring Different Brains. And today, we have coming to us from neurodiversity. The one and only. Jessica Kidwell. Now before I botch up your introduction with SDN, and all the good stuff you do, why don’t you introduce yourself properly?
JESSICA KIDWELL (JK):
Well, I would be more than happy to my name is Jessica Kidwell. And I am just recently comfortable saying a podcaster. It turned a hobby has turned into a job, which has been a really fun experience that the pandemic kind of created for me. And I am currently the host of two podcasts, one of which Neuroversity is, I think why we’re here to talk today. But I also have a second podcast called, We Should Talk About That, that I do with a co host. And it’s a very topical, we talk about anything that people are thinking and probably should be talking about more, but Neuroversity is my heart. I love podcasting in general. And we should talk about that was first, and that started in January of 2020. And I found out that I have an affinity for chatting. And when I started thinking about ways in which to expand some areas of topics that I personally am interested in, We Should Talk About That is much more of like a 50,000 foot view of all sorts of different topics. And I wanted to create something to really dive deeper into a topic near and dear to my heart, which is neuro diversity. And so I decided to just create my own platform and start slowly figuring out how to find the voices and experiences that should be elevated. I myself am neurotypical, but I am the mother of two neurodivergent children, one of which is my 15 year old daughter who’s autistic. And she began her diagnostic her diagnosis process when she was in preschool, and my son is just turned 13. And he identifies as neurodivergent. It’s kind of an interesting situation with him, he has anxiety and depression. And I know that that’s kind of a topic within the neuro diverse world as far as whether or not mental health diagnoses should or should not fall into the neurodivergent umbrella. So the podcast takes a look at I much, I have a very wide umbrella view. And I like to talk to elevate and advocate for any of the conditions that either diagnose that are officially diagnosed or self diagnose. So it’s a informative, but also an interview style podcast that comes out every other week on a wide variety of topics. And it has been so much fun and so gratifying to do.
HR:
Well, that’s great. We need more people like you now, because you like us here at Different Brains. We think every brain is different. And there’s all kinds of different brains and yes, at Different Brains we consider mental health issues under the big umbrella. And so do we consider neurological issues, and neuro diversity itself issues and all kinds of different brains. My understanding is that you and I also agree on as Different Brains do with that. It’s very, very important that all of these families and all of these people affected by neurodiversity, listen to self advocates. I’d like you to expound on that a little bit.
JK:
So my hesitation when I was trying to decide whether or not I should start a podcast or host a podcast on neurodivergent experiences without having a neurodivergent diagnosis for myself. I really struggled. I felt compelled that I wanted to elevate neurodivergent voices. I wasn’t seeing a ton of specific neurodivergent So, podcasts. But I, as I went through the process of my oldest kind of moving from young or moving from being an adolescent to young adult, it was a really strange process because for so long her diagnosis was my life. It was my identity. I was, you know, I coordinated all of the care, I needed to make sure that I was advocating for her, I needed to organize everything, and it kind of became my life. And then as she got older, and I started to realize she needed to hold her diagnosis more and I needed to hand off to her, the advocating and understanding of what she means I felt kind of unmoored, I felt lost for a couple of years, she was about 12, when I first started noticing it, it was as if I didn’t have an identity anymore. It was never my diagnosis, but it had become my life. And it’s just a strange place that I think many parents find themselves in, especially as the self advocate world is gaining traction and more platforms for them to be able to advocate for themselves. It’s incredibly important. And I don’t want to be the face of neuro divergence, I shouldn’t be the face of neurodivergence. But I am a huge advocate and ally. And I wanted to explore the space of both. And is it possible to turn the focus and the microphone and the cameras and the publishing platforms, more towards self advocates, and those who actually carry the diagnosis, but also keep space and hold space for those of us who carry the diagnosis when our kids could not. So it’s, it’s just this funny little middle ground of trying to figure out how to elevate more neurodivergent voices, but keep it open and welcome so that there are plenty of spaces for parents, friends, and family who love or work with or teach people with neurodivergent diagnoses so that it can be collaborative, as opposed to an us against them. So I do try very hard to never have an episode of neurodiversity be about me, or be a conversation between myself and another neurotypical, I am a student and I invite people to come share their experience, so that I can learn more and hopes that that then facilitates more collaboration and more understanding amongst the neurodivergent and neurotypical communities.
HR:
Now, you as a parent so eloquently described, how this becomes your life. Talk to us a little bit what advice you might have, to the parents out there who are raising multiple children, you have to with different needs. There are ones out there with multiples, what might you say to them?
JK:
So I think that my first and my first piece of advice always is to normalize the experience that a parent has, when they’re either going through the diagnosis, diagnosis process, or immediately after when they have a diagnosis, but then the overwhelm of what that means can kind of take hold. I want to normalize for those parents that what their feeling is okay. I think that there is a lot of shame and guilt parents deal with at the very beginning, or even before the diagnostic process begins, of I shouldn’t feel sad, I shouldn’t feel upset about this path that my child is now going to have to go on. Because I think the more we try in stuff Those feelings, then they take root harder. And the more you try to ignore them, the more insistent they get in different ways. So I’m a big believer in, Hello, welcome to the porch of emotions, have a seat, there’s room for everybody, much like the neurodivergent umbrella is ginormous, I feel like the emotions that parents go through early on should also be very large and welcome. And that is always my step one is just to really try to get a parent starting their path with their child, to normalize that whatever they’re feeling, they need to feel it, then. Because if you if you let that feeling happen, then you can move forward. And one of the things that I have started to kind of tease out that I personally think is so important, especially with the amount of information and the amount of websites and the amount of creators and content makers that are out there. You have to become a very informed consumer. And I like to talk about using your LR lenses, not your left right lenses, but your L AR lenses, when you are looking for information about whatever path or diagnosis your child is on. The L is for language, and the R is for representation. And I think that as a parent, starting the path, or even if you’ve already been on the path for 12 years, like myself, and a bit longer for you Hackie, the language of any resource that you are seeking out, especially on the wild wild web is very, very important. And the the very first term that I try to share with parents starting their path is looking at person first versus identity first language. And, you know, I think that most self advocates are much more comfortable with being having they’re not having their diagnosis define them but feeling comfortable with like my daughter, instead of saying, Grace has autism, I, which was very much the case when she was diagnosed, you know, nine years ago. Grace is autistic, it is just one aspect of who she is. It isn’t something that is always going to be a part of her. She’s also a girl, she’s also a dancer, she’s also a high school sophomore, she doesn’t have dance, she doesn’t have high school, she is and she is autistic. And so looking at the way that language is used for a particular neurodivergent diagnosis is an important aspect of the resources that you’re looking at. And you want to just make sure that the language that a website or a content creator, or or advocacy group is using matches what your family value is. So looking at that, and then the other important thing, which I think you know, different brains is a leader on the representation of the organization or resource that you are looking at to get information to help you on your path with your child is so important. And it kind of starts with who’s on the board. Are there any actual neurodivergent individuals making up the leadership of the publication website, organization that that you’re looking towards to help? And then the voices and the faces that they put forward? Are there any neurodivergent voices and faces and experiences that are leading the conversations instead of how it historically has been? And I identify the irony of being a neurotypical talking about this? But making sure there’s not just me’s making sure there is not just Well, I know someone who’s neurodivergent let me tell you about their experience. But I do think a well rounded representation and having the parent point of view is very important and I certainly don’t want and don’t find myself drawn to organizations that have become almost a little adversarial towards parent involvement. But that is why I think differently Brains is such a well rounded. And watching you kind of change your role through the years from when you first started to kind of moving a little bit farther back has been kind of a model that many of us could learn from.
HR:
Oh, you’re so kind, this is good.
JK:
You know what I’m good for? An ego.
HR:
Yeah. Well you’re good for a lot of things, I’m seeing it more as less as diagnoses and more as traits. Okay, none of these things occur in isolation, you can’t be autistic, without being a little bit depressed, not having some anxiety. ADHD certainly overlaps to a great extent, throw in a little bit of dyslexia once in a while, a little bit of this calculator, but whatever, there and we try to make them pure and isolated, which it isn’t. It gets very easy when you go to the other extreme to say, Well, each of our brains are different, they’re like snowflakes, you gotta have a diagnosis to get your benefits to get your schooling to get what you need.
JK:
One of the things I’ve noticed kind of taking hold culturally, which I’m struggling with is this concept of, well, everyone’s a little neurodivergent, like, you know, is there a point when the umbrella can get too large, so that then the resources, which are finite, start to become a little too watered down for those who really, really need them in order to have a fulfilling life in which they decide what that looks like. Because I I have found, as I’ve become more knowledgeable, I know that there’s an actual term for this, but it is escaping me right now that once you start to become aware of something, you start seeing it everywhere. You know that that phenomenon of I’m like the queen of diagnosing people with ADHD as adult women now because it seems to be it seems to be an area set up with an epidemic. And I do find the I’m curious to see where the pendulum will eventually land on that. Because as you widen the umbrella, I do think you can get to a point where maybe it’s too wide. And maybe not everyone is a little bit neurodivergent. Because I think it’s important to protect the finite, to protect the finite amount of resources and support that ultimately can be available for those who truly, truly need it.
HR:
Well, then you get into the knowledge gaps. We used to say in medicine, that everything’s getting so subspecialized. Ultimately, you know, more and more about less and less, until ultimately, you know everything about nothing. When neurodiversity can be like that, if you go all the way over this, we all everything’s different. And we all have traits, versus this is strictly autism. And this is strictly ADHD. Right? You know, and the truth as with so many things lies somewhere in between
JK:
somewhere in the messy middle.
HR:
And how do we help each other achieve our goals? That’s the main thing. The reason I feel more comfortable different on the different brains aspect is that so many of these tools help you no matter what your diagnosis is, even if you neurotypical that’s the key. I’m more interested when I named my book Asper tools was because I’m not interested in all of the blah, blah, blah. What can I do about it? Well, here’s the tool you can use, make a list, you know, finite thing, you know, kind of thing.
JK:
The whole concept of universal design and having the system or systems be built to benefit more, as opposed to a few. There’s, there’s no downside to that, in my opinion. And I think that if we can normalize the traits that you so eloquently say and kind of demystify or destigmatize what it means to be autistic or what it means to have multiple neurodivergence. Then You can move to a space of oh, okay, that makes sense. And it would be really easy for me to change my work process or the way that I require meetings to take place to make room for more. And so the the concept of universal design, which is one of the things that I talked with Haley about on neurodiversity is fascinating to me, and how many we think about in the disabled community, how many able bodied people benefit from things in place that were made specifically for disabled bodies? And, and I, I wonder if maybe we can start moving towards that as a concept for Neurodivergence as well.
HR:
You know, I see in your background, you’ve been a freelance writer, or preschool teacher, a government employee, bartender, waitress, lifeguard? Uh, huh. Few million other things. Tell us how that has helped you in formulating your overall approach? Because I noticed you have two podcasts. I do diversity one. And tell us about your other one. That sounds to me like it might incorporate a whole lot more…
JK:
It does. So I have seen a there’s there’s like a whole content creation about people talking about their second acts. And I’ve decided forget second act. I’m much more interested in people who are on their third, fourth, fifth, sixth seventh acts. I think that my varied history. And and to be fair, the the lifeguarding was when I was a teenager, it was my summer job. And the bartending was how I paid for college. So both of those things were feels like more than multiple lifetimes ago. But I chose…
HR:
Let me interrupt you to say this. Isn’t it interesting that people segregate that out?
JK:
I know, it’s still valuable and valid life experience 100%
HR:
Perhaps more than the other more, quote, mature jobs.
JK:
My time with the Department of Veterans Affairs, I think that I probably did not learn as much as I did when I was bartending for TGI Fridays, the skills that I have that I learned there, I’m definitely still putting into place where I’m not 100% sure that some of the paper pushing that I did with the VA is serving me today. Although I don’t want to knock it It was a lovely experience. So I, I think that all of those experiences, whether we devalue them or not, have taught me that being with people is where I get my most energy, talking with people hearing stories, finding out the why someone is who they are today. It fuels me, it excites me, it is so fun. And hearing people’s stories, I think is an equalizer, that does not get enough oxygen. I think that especially in our culture, right now, there tends to be a very either or, You’re either with me or you’re against me, you’re either a Democrat, you’re a Republican, you’re either neurodivergent or you’re neurotypical, this whole, either or concept is so polarizing, and I don’t see an end point that can be anything good. And being a storyteller, being a story gatherer, to me, is actually where I believe I, in my time on this planet, can make the difference that actually matters, the sharing of stories, giving people the opportunity, having a platform in which whatever the story is, whether it is as niched down as it is on Neuroversity, or whether it’s much more of that 50,000 foot viewpoint from We Should Talk About That. They’re all just listening to people’s stories and listening to their experiences. and it is all I can, I can identify and connect with anyone, once I have an opportunity to hear their story, it doesn’t matter how different we are, it doesn’t matter how different our experiences are, where they live, what color they are, what gender they are. There’s a connection that occurs through storytelling, or story gathering, which is kind of how I see myself is that just it fuels me. And so that is why I now have the two podcasts. And it’s why I can proudly say that that’s what I do for a living now, it used to feel like something I couldn’t own because, you know, I don’t know, I didn’t have a media background, or I do it in my basement, or I don’t have a large company funding it behind me. It’s it’s an independent project for both of them. But who cares? Who cares? It’s what I do. It’s what I love. It’s my passion. So I have recently proudly owned the fact that these two podcasts are are my job and it’s it’s definitely my purpose.
HR:
Tell our audience the names of the two podcasts again.
JK:
sure. So Neuroversity, which is available wherever you find your podcast. It comes out every other Friday, so to Friday and our bi weekly I believe they call that in the biz, and that one is very specific and focused on elevating neurodivergent voices and experiences. It will range from being kind of like a 10 minute in from informative about a wide variety of topics. Or then I also have interview style where I will talk to someone who has either a diagnosis or self identifies as being neurodivergent in some way or is an expert in an area of interest for the neurodivergent community. For instance, my most recent episode was an interview with a 12th grader who is a youth ambassador for the Tourette Association of America. And she also happens to have created a foundation for providing sports equipment to girls specifically around the world. So the Tourette syndrome is just one part of her life. And yet, she’s doing all these other amazing things. So that’s Neuroversity. And We Should Talk About That. I’m a visual learner. Obviously, everyone can see the neurodiversity but We Should Talk About That is yellow looks like that. That one’s that one’s we should talk about that. That one is so all over the place. We talk about anything and everything kind of what interests myself and my co host, Jessica Buchanan, where the two Jesses and we will talk about anything from menopause parenting, unemployment rates, gun violence, asleep and sober living, disordered eating. I mean, that one, we literally just follow whatever pops in our interest area and…
HR:
For those of us with a little bit of ADHD maybe…
JK:
It would have really appeal maybe it would really appeal. We had an exciting conversation that came out this week with a an author named Cody Keenan, who was President Obama’s chief speechwriter. And he has just released a book about a 10 day period during the Obama administration. That was fairly pivotal. And the really fun thing about talking with him is my co host on We should talk about that just could Buchanan. She actually was kidnapped in 2011 2012 by Somali pirates and held for 93 days in President while President Obama was president and he gave the order to have her rescued by SEAL Team Six. And while we were talking with Cody, who had no idea who Jessica was, we had a technology issue where the podcast kind of glitched out but the we were still recording and she kind of shared why President Obama is particularly important to her. And he it was like this very cool, like moment of he went wait a second. That happened at the State of the Union. He gave that order right before the State of the Union. I remember that night we were all sitting in a room waiting to find out if you were safely rescued. And this is you, I’m talking to you right now? And I don’t know, those types of things seem to happen all the time. And you know why? Because we’re just talking and sharing stories, and the world seems to end up being fairly small, despite the vastness of it all. So, yeah, it’s, um, I think I’m just gonna keep talking and see what happens.
HR:
How cool is that I know, right? It’s really, really, super.
JK:
And just for fun, just because I have to the reason I’m here and the reason why I started following you, is through meeting a woman named Faithe Raphael is someone who I believe, has been a parent advocate in the neurodivergent world for a very long time. And when she first kind of started guiding me on this path of using my voice for this particular podcast, you were the one of the first places she told me I needed to go to look at a as a model for doing good work.
HR:
Wow I’m very flattered. Well, our team, which is the vast majority of our stuff is produced by our wonderful neurodivergent interns are all over 18 years old, and their ages go all over the map. Some of them are working full jobs, and going to college and doing Masters, we got a couple of med school law school, they were all over, but all their brains are a little bit different. And they’re all smarter than me. That’s, that’s who does a lot of the lot of the product here. And through them, we’ve been able to, and I love hearing stories like that, and I can’t wait to tell the the team and have them. You know, it’s it’s great. It’s great. It’s great. Working with nice people, and doing your best to just spread the word about different brains and neurodiversity and what we can do to all help each other. And isn’t that fun? And isn’t it good. And listening to you today and seeing you. Your spirit is just great, and you’re happy. You’re having fun. You’re helping a lot of people. I mean, this is great stuff.
JK:
I mean, fingers crossed, fingers crossed, Hackie fingers crossed. I’m very grateful to you for sharing this time with me and for introducing me to all of the followers have different brains, and I hope that some of them will take their time to check me out.
HR:
Well, let’s give the website again to our audience.
JK:
So it’s Neuroversitypod, Neuroversity pod, as for podcast, dot com. And I’m also NeuroversityPod on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook, where I spend entirely too much time. All of the episodes are available on the website. And Neuroversity is a portmanteau between neuro diversity, and then the word university because I just kind of think of a university as being a space where lots of different points of view can come together to share. And I wanted to build a space that felt like a university for neurodivergent topics, and so Neuroversity came to be so NeuroversityPod.com, and also on @neuroversitypod on pretty much every social media platform.
HR:
What is one thing you think that most people don’t get about neurodiversity?
JK:
I think most people want it to be cookie cutter, and that there should just be one way to be neurodivergent and that it’s siloed. That if you are autistic, or you have ADHD or you have dyslexia, stay in your silo. But I think this and I’ve heard you speak on this Hackie the idea of the umbrella and getting it less vertical and getting it much more a circumference is really where the change and the support needs to be focused.
HR:
Thank you so much for being with us today. Keep up the great work you do for so many and we hope you’ll come back sometime.
JK:
I would love to.
