From Autism Ally to Autism Accomplice, with Jacklyn Googins | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 110
Spectrumly Speaking is also available on: Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | SoundCloud
IN THIS EPISODE:
(AUDIO – 36 minutes) In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts welcome Jacklyn Googins. Jacklyn is a 2nd year occupational therapy student at UNC Chapel Hill, the founder of B3 Coffee, and the co-founder of OTs for Neurodiversity. She hopes to carve a non-traditional path as a future OT interested in inclusive workplace practices, neurodiversity in higher education, and post-secondary transition. She considers herself an ally and aspiring accomplice in partnership with neurodivergent populations, dedicated to advancing occupational justice through her involvement in community-level initiatives.
For more about Jacklyn and her work, visit:
facebook.com/neurodiversity.ot
instagram.com/neurodiversity_ot
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com
Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com
CLICK HERE FOR PREVIOUS EPISODES
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:
HALEY MOSS (HM):
Hello, and welcome to spectrum Lee speaking. I’m Hayley Moss, Attorney, author, artist, and I’m autistic. And as usual, I’m joined here by my wonderful co host…
DR LORI BUTTS (LB):
You’re so sweet. Hi, I’m Lori Butts. I’m a psychologist and an attorney.
HM:
How are you doing?
LB:
Good, how are you?
HM:
Always something going on in my world. So it’s been a pretty exciting week, I got to give a guest lecture to another group of college kids. And I got all sorts of stuff kind of getting ready for the next stages of book stuff. So always something going on.
LB:
Excellent. That’s awesome.
HM:
Keeping everyone in the loop.
LB:
Yeah. That’s great. I’m excited about your journey with this book. It’s awesome.
HM:
Thank you. I’m excited too. And I got my second shot. So that was nice
LB:
Oh, nice. How do you feel?
HM:
It was rough. But I’m, I’m back in action.
LB:
Great. I’m happy for you. Good job.
HM:
Thank you. I think today, we have just so much excitement that it’s easier to just dive right in. What
LB:
do you think I agree. Let’s go for it.
HM:
So today, our guest is Jacklyn Googins. And Jacklyn is a second year occupational therapy student at UNC Chapel Hill, the founder of B3 coffee, and the co founder of OTs for Neurodiversity. She hopes to carve a non traditional path as a future OT, interested in inclusive workplace practices, neuro diversity in higher education and Post Secondary Transition. She considers herself an ally and aspiring accomplice in partnership with neurodivergent populations dedicated to advancing occupational justice, through her involvement and community level initiatives. You are awesome. Welcome to the show.
JACKLYN GOOGINS (JG):
Thank you so much for having me. It’s an honor.
HM:
It’s so great to have you. I think. I really love how you talk about being an ally and an accomplice. So we’re gonna do things differently today and just get straight to the discussion, because there’s just so much here. But before we get started, can you tell us how you became involved in the autism community?
JG:
Ah, yeah, sure. So it’s really been a lifelong journey. For me. I have always felt different in a way, just socially. And in many of the ways I engaged in the world, I guess. And I, from a very young age, I was drawn to people with disabilities, because I felt like I could be my most authentic self. I felt like I could be socially accepted. And so I remember in, I think it was seventh grade, I joined lunch buddies, which is essentially an opportunity for non disabled students to have lunch and socialize with students in special education, who were at the time I was growing up. I mean, I’m very young, but it was a segregated classroom. And there, I really, again, just felt like I had the freedom to accept my own differences. And I don’t think I was exposed until to the neurodiversity paradigm until probably late in college, but it just really resonated with me. I think, really, we’re all neurodiverse and yes, autistic people are really identified with that more, but in a way like this is something that can be applied to all humans just for greater understanding and acceptance.
LB:
It’s so true when Hackie the founder of Different Brains started working in this area, and creating Aspertools. I was like, all everything that we’re talking about can help anybody is helpful for everybody. Everybody’s brain is different every we’re all individuals we all have. And so that’s different here at Different Brains That’s a really important point that hopefully we get across and everything that we talk about that it’s always kind of my my thing on the podcast is all of the tips and all the things that we discussed are good for everybody to feel better. When you gave us some tips for for moving from neurodiversity ally to accomplice, which is such a fun way to look at it. Um, we want to go over them. Just have like a discussion about your your tips. So first on my list is shift the power. What does that mean?
JG:
Yeah, so let’s dive in. First, I just wanted to define accomplice and ally, right? So I define an ally is someone who is willing to stand in support of marginalized voice. And risk is rarely involved in this, you’re kind of just standing alongside them and saying, Yes, like, I want to make space for you, right. And an accomplice really uses their own power and privilege that they have to challenge socially constructed norms in a way that may even risk their social status in the process. So in no way am I claiming that I am an accomplice, I think ally-ship is a journey. And it’s a verb, and it’s a constant reeducation and unlearning process. But I think it’s something that we can always be striving to move toward. And the first tip that I had yet was shift the power. So this really just means amplifying autistic voices and your advocacy work. So whether that’s engaging with autistic people on social media, there’s a very vibrant community. And you know, it’s as simple as if you want to learn about autism, listen to autistic people, and hold yourself accountable to nothing about us. Without us. I feel like able bodied people are often speaking for the disability community under the impression that they’re doing good work, when really, they’re just perpetuating a cycle of oppression where not disabled people hold the power and really dominate the narrative.
LB:
I think that, I mean, not to get off topic too much. But I think that that… I think it’s a hard concept to understand power, when you have power. It’s it, you know, it’s easier to understand when you don’t have the power, but we need you have the power, you take it for granted. And you kind of don’t recognize that. So I think that that’s, that’s that piece of education is is crucial. I think that’s really and I mean, everything you’re saying is important. But I think that — to help bring in allies and accomplices that that’s like the pivotal piece of it…
JG:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, because as neurotypicals, the world is designed for us. And we may not even realize the privilege we have, unless we’re exposed to people who are different than us. I may go on a tangent here. But this concept of positive visibility has really driven a lot of my work. And really, this is authentic representation of disabled people. So that they really have a platform to be seen and heard and valued. I feel like a lot of stigma is really just underpinned by non disabled people feeling uncomfortable with what they’re not exposed to, as you may not have a family member with a disability, or you may not see many people with disabilities in public because of all of the systemic barriers. And so then when you happen to encounter someone with a disability, it’s just like a novel thing, right? Unless we are really giving disabled people a dignified platform where they can hold power and leadership.
HM:
That makes a lot of sense. And I think this is going to come up later, but I think a lot of non disabled people who do get into this at first or they don’t know better, will often speak over autistic people and other disabled people and not amplify voices, because they don’t know better, and they think you’re doing the right thing. And especially with autistic people, I’ll meet a lot of parents and well meaning people that are involved, that will be like, “Well, my kid can’t speak”. And I have to remind them that just because they’re not speaking or nonverbal, whichever kind of — whatever support needs they have. They think that the kid doesn’t have a voice. And at the same time, as I say, there’s no such thing as a voiceless person to silenced or on heard.
JG:
Yeah, so this actually, I’m going to skip forward to my last point, which is avoid casting judgment. And this is something that I personally have struggled with since becoming since embracing a neurodiversity understanding of autism. But you know, you see this all the time, parents who are starting fundraisers for Autism Speaks or you see the blue puzzle piece or sometimes you’ll even See autistic people who are not very embracing of their own disability, right. And so we call this like the autism advocacy divide, like there’s this neurodiversity versus deficit, view of autism. And I think I’ve just come to the point where judgment is not helpful, because you have to know better in order to do better, like you’re saying, Haley, I think we can lead through example, rather than through shaming those people. And just recognizing that, like, people are at different stages in their understanding of disability issues. And, you know, I look back at my own advocacy journey, and like, I am almost like, judgmental of who I used to be. And, yeah, and that’s, it’s just not helpful, we can only move forward. And also, internalized ableism is a thing.
HM:
And it really is, and it’s something that I know, that I struggle a lot with, and I think it’s such a journey, so I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.
JG:
Um, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s really conditioned by the society that we live in, there’s so many messages in the media, or just in our culture that say, differences are bad. And meeting help is something to be ashamed of. And, you know, we live in a very individualistic society that has very narrow standards of what’s an ideal way to be human. And what’s an ideal way to socially engage? And yeah, that that really can be harmful and affect someone’s identity, self concept. And so we need to be sensitive to that.
HM:
And going back to more of your tips as well, I think understanding internalized ableism is also part of what you say is dismantling your bias. So I think that’s part of it, because you met me, like that’s a bias that I hold is that internalized ableism. And I know that’s something I struggle I struggle with, because society has told me, especially in places where like accommodations might be denied in schools and stuff and post secondary, for instance, that you’re lazy, or you’re stupid, or you’re just not doing it right.
JG:
Yeah, so dismantling your bias starts with considering autism as a way of being, right, and a valid identity and culture, and an aspect of diversity just like race or gender or any other form of diversity. Because there’s really nothing wrong with the way that autistic people present their direct, they’re honest, they’re reflective and genuine and so much more. And many autistic people will tell you not all, but they do not suffer from autism. And it’s, it’s more so that they suffer from living and enable this world that is not designed for them. And so part of this dismantling bias is also recognizing the double empathy problem. I think all neurotypicals should be aware of this term and this concept, but it’s really just the idea that, you know, well, autistic people struggle to understand neurotypicals it turns out that neurotypicals also struggle to understand and follow autistic social norms. And actually, autistics have learned to recognize neurotypical norms, more than not autistics have learned to understand and empathize with autistic culture. So this is all to say that, like communication and seeking to understand across neuro types is a two way pursuit and requires effort and understanding on both parts.
LB:
So true. That’s really true and kind of a big undertaking. I mean, it requires, you know, so again, so much at first insight, education, empathy, and a lot of levels to that. Right. And but it’s so important to put out to point out because you’re absolutely right. And your your, your other tip, don’t fall into the “feel-good trap”. What does that mean?
JG:
Yeah, um, so, this is something that I will admit at the beginning of my advocacy journey I fell into so this is extremely meaningful to me. But it’s just the idea that inclusion should not be driven by altruistic intention. You shouldn’t expect some kind of reward for your allies or practice for treating disabled people with respect.
LB:
Okay, I get it. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, go ahead. Sorry.
JG:
Yeah, um, and then I guess, under this category would be “inspiration porn”. So, sharing something for the sake of feeling good about yourself. Or maybe you’re giving yourself a pat on the back because you share a video of a little girl with cerebral palsy walking for the first time. And, you know, just question yourself. What message is this portraying? Is it evoking pity? Or is it just intended to make able bodied people feel good about themselves? Because Oh, you’re not in that person’s shoes. So one of one of my favorite quotes is “ableism looks like calling disabled people inspiring for navigating the system designed for their exclusion”. Doing that need to hold that system accountable. So that’s really at the core of this feel good narrative that I feel like a lot of people start off at the beginning of their advocacy journey.
HM:
The weirdest thing when you kind of call it out, or someone asks you how you feel about it, at least for me is and I always think you’re super negative. Like there was a letter I think it was maybe a week or two ago, from an autistic guy who was seeking employment he hand wrote like a cover letter went viral. And everyone like felt really good about sharing it. Like why? Why aren’t we just holding employers accountable that we shouldn’t have to like grovel for somebody to take a chance on us? Like, where people are qualified? I say this to somebody and they’re like, why are you so negative should be so glad your issues getting attention? And I’m like, Yeah, and I also feel weird, because I have a story that was turned into inspiration porn at some point.
JG:
I was gonna say, I was like, Haley, I’ve actually seen you portrayed in that way. Because it’s like…
HM:
…and that’s why I’d wrote essays about my experience, like — my story is not once upon a time I was nonverbal and here I am. That’s not me.
JG:
It’s like, in order for a disabled people to be respected, they have to, in some way, like overcome their disability.
HM:
It’s such a complicated thing, even for disabled people, because a lot of us will engage in inspiration porn and things like this, not because we want to, because it’s the thing that pays bills, especially with when you have a lot of people who are unemployed or underemployed. That telling your story in that way, or being asked to speak about it in that way might be the thing that, you know, gets you paid. So there’s a lot of, so there’s a lot of like, inside the disability community, people that will perpetrate this type of media, even though we don’t agree with it, because at the same time, you have to be able to survive in this system. So it’s, it’s a really complicated topic, actually.
LB:
Yeah. And I’m sitting here trying to kind of work my way through it. And, and I do I mean, what then then what, what, what would be the positive portrayal? Like, give me if you can. Like, what what wouldn’t be considered exploitive?
HM:
Think about how I think media makes you feel when you see it, like, are we sharing this because it makes us feel good about ourselves? Would this be news if it were a non disabled person? That’s usually a good standard. Like, like, I know that my story would not have been news if autism wasn’t part of the equation like a very another another ERISA it would just be yet yet another young person becomes an attorney in our profession full of 100,000. Florida lawyers. It’s being completely honest about it.
JG:
Sensationalizing people with disabilities doing ordinary things.
LB:
But let me be devil’s advocate here. I mean, it you know, you, you, you, you Haley have gotten a platform to help educate a lot of people and to maybe make more allies or accomplices, you know. So there’s a lot of positive.
HM:
Absolutely, that’s how I kind of used it is, if this is how you’re getting into this work. That’s great. I don’t care how you got to my doorstep, I don’t care if you got to my doorstep as an accomplice, I don’t care if you got there as an ally, or you’re just neurodiversity curious or you do nothing. I don’t care how you got to my doorstep. Okay. But I did make a very conscious point when I was talking to reporters all the time to talk about neuro diversity to talk about like, This shouldn’t have been news and the today show actually ran with that angle. I said, like, stories like mine shouldn’t be exceptional. And I truly believe that.
LB:
Right.
HM:
And every once in a while, you’ll get a reporter that latches to something like that, because they just think it’s such an interesting take. Or they’ll just cut it out completely because it doesn’t fit their version of this…
LB:
Their narrative, right.
HM:
So coming from the other side of that Having been on the I’ve been turned into an inspirational figure in some way, shape or form, it doesn’t mean that sometimes it means that our message isn’t being heard, which is why I’d write about it for like Huffpost and other places once it was over, because I was like, Okay, I can control this narrative. If I write an essay about it, it’s whatever I want to say. And all an editor is going to do is make it sound better. And I can push back on it, because it’s my words. So that’s kind of a different take on how I wanted to get control of that narrative. After I did see certain outlets did a really good job respecting what I wanted to talk about, and others kind of wanted to sensationalize it more. And even now, I realized when I talk to certain reporters, the ones that I could tell that really want to sensationalize, even at this point a couple years out, really, really, really want to talk to my parents. That’s usually a pretty good tip to me, or a quick tip off of: Okay, I’m going to be 27, I’ve graduated school three years ago, I am working, I live on my own and I don’t live at home anymore. And you want to talk to my parents. And I don’t think that’s something that happens to non disabled 27 year olds,to non disabled teenagers that they want to talk to your parents about how proud they are, how proud they are of kids. Right? Right. And it just strikes me every time that’s a well meaning journalist will say that they want to talk to my parents at this point.
LB:
Right. That’s a very good point.
HM:
And I wonder what the point of that is. I know like, we all know, my parents are proud of me. And they’re wonderful human beings. We love my parents. My mom has been a guest on the show full disclosure, we love my parents. Okay, this is not a slight against them whatsoever. This is a “is this really necessary” question.
JG:
Yeah, I’m actually seen, for the first time a parallel between this issue and masking, it’s like, autistic people have to have some things just for the sake of survival in a world, and in many ways, like masking has been shamed, like no autistic people should embrace themselves. And, you know, that’s not always…
HM:
You have to survive.
JG:
Yeah, exactly. And so sometimes disabled people have to give in to being represented in that way. Because it is representation in some form, it may not be the best form, right? But it’s something.
HM:
Yeah, exactly. And one of our past guests actually has tweeted a couple threads about this before about even just the business of inspirational feelgood type stuff of how like disabled people fall into it, even if they don’t want to, and how we’re taught to tell our stories at young ages for that very reason. Like there’s — it’s a really interesting thing to do a deeper dive on. And I wish we had the time to do that. So such an interesting topic, which brings us to kind of how do we we’re going to be making mistakes, right? Like, even if it’s whether we want ourselves portrayed in this way we don’t, or we’re just thinking that we’re well meaning and doing the right thing by sharing somebody’s stories. So how are we going to handle the fact that we’re probably going to screw up in some way, shape or form? We all do, whether it was me being a teenager thinking that high functioning was totally okay to say and not in thinking I was somehow better than other people, because that’s what it reinforces you’re not autistic like they are. Because that’s what high functioning did when I was a kid. That’s kind of what it was saying. And of course, now I know better than to use terminology, like high functioning, and I don’t use that now. But that’s something I used growing up in my defense is always Well, that was on my diagnosis. I didn’t know better. Yeah. And of course, now I know better. Even though that was part of my diagnosis. It’s something I quickly let go of when I realized how harmful it really could be.
JG:
Yeah, I can totally relate to that. At one point, I thought person first language was the most respectful way to address a disabled person, because that was that’s what was taught to me in my classes. And yeah, again, the more you know, the better you do. And unlearning ableism is a dynamic process. I think we need to make space for mistakes, because it means that we’re taking action. And one of this is a Bernie brown quote that I want to bring in. But it’s, I am here to get it right not to be right. And I think this is something that can really resonate with a lot of aspiring accomplices is, you know, disabled people don’t expect you to, you know, do everything perfectly. I think many of them just appreciate that, that you are desiring to be a change agent and that you are desiring to positively represent them. So, and then on the other hand, bear with them if they’re skeptical of you. That doesn’t mean that you should stop trying and stop. You know, doing better But many disabled people have had conditioned negative associations with non disabled people, because of stigma and assumptions that have been made about them. So also just acknowledge that.
HM:
It’s so true. I’m sitting here like nodding,
JG:
Yeah, just get comfortable being uncomfortable if you don’t identify with the group that you are advocating for.
HM:
Even within the group, I realized as a disabled and neurodivergent person, I realized that we make mistakes too. And I think some of that comes from wanting to bridge those divides between like non disabled people, disabled people, and there’s so many different subcultures within disability to is that, we think that because we’re, we’re disabled, we’re also the same as other disabled people when we have very different experiences. So people with mobility impairments have a very different experience than autistic people. And while we all experience ableism, the way that we experience it is very different. Right? Yeah, that’s true, is that someone who has a visible disability has it very differently, because people sometimes are a lot more empathetic or sympathetic for that matter. Because it’s something that’s visible to them that they see a wheelchair, they see someone struggling to move, they see someone who’s blind or deaf, that they could tell, well, someone who’s autistic or has a learning disability, or is otherwise like neurodivergent, it might not be as super obvious to a neurotypical person because of masking or whatever. Or they just don’t know what they’re looking at. So they’ll be like, oh, but you’re not really disabled. And you’d never say that to someone who’s like, in a wheelchair. So the way that I think neurotypical and able bodied people act sometimes is really interesting.
JG:
Yeah, as humans, I feel like we’re just so quick to generalize, like, once you learn one thing, then we just kind of apply it to everyone else. And I’m constantly being confronted with that and having to check myself. And, you know, just because one person prefers identity first language doesn’t mean all people do.
HM:
Exactly. And I think something that’s really interesting, and this is something that I’ve seen kind of come to light more recently is because I got to, I used to help people get vaccine appointments, I still do. And you’ll see people who talk about having a underlying health condition or medically fragile, they’ll use all these words. And I’m know that they’re never gonna say they’re disabled. And I think it’s very interesting how many people say, Oh, I have a pre existing condition. Oh, and medically fragile. My kid is medically fragile. And like, you can say, and I’m sitting there thinking you can say disability. But I know that these people might have never identified this disabled before, either. Which is so like, it’s mind boggling to me at times.
JG:
Well, it’s like, society tells you that disability is nothing to be proud of. And if you know yourself from it, you should. So it’s like, we need to be understanding and empathetic of where those people are coming from. And they may not have the privilege to proudly identify with a disability, or they may have been shamed for it. And maybe even like, siphoned into this medical model where they need to be fixed, and that there’s something wrong with them. And so why would you want to identify with that? So yeah.
HM:
I think it’s just so interesting, though. And I think a lot of it also comes down to the language that we use to talk about certain conditions as well, and certain disabilities is that we don’t frame them as disabilities and people wonder, am I disabled enough to even identify as disabled?
JG:
Yeah, absolutely.
HM:
I think there’s some kind of arbitrary, like, line that you have to cross to actually be disabled?
LB:
Right, right.
HM:
I see that with my friends who have things like diabetes is they’re like, well, it’s a condition. It doesn’t disable me. But as long as I take my insulin, I’m fine.
JG:
Yeah, I think it all comes back to like people have the right to define their experience of disability for themselves.
LB:
Right, right.
HM:
Absolutely. And identity is such a journey. Because I think about even like, for me, it was always a journey. Like it was something that when I first found out about it was something that I kept to myself and was kind of a very need to know, basis thing. And it took a long time, I think to get to that out loud and proud perspective.
JG:
Oh, yeah, I mean, it’s resistance against every system and structure in our society to to claim that you’re proud of something that our culture says is deviant. Right?
HM:
This is so good. There’s a really cool follow up. I would love to read on air one day, that’s by Laura Hershey, who is a disabled activist, it’s called “you get proud by practicing”. And it’s that basically, like the premise is that you’re the one you’re not the one who made you ashamed, but you’re the one who can make yourself proud and I just absolutely love it and I would love to pull that off. And actually read that one day for a reading for our listeners, it’s just such a powerful piece of writing.
LB:
Yeah, even the concept sounds amazing.
HM:
I’ll have to share it with you all. It’s just so great.
LB:
Yeah, yeah. And it’s true. I mean, you know, I’m sitting here just kind of reflecting on everything. And I just my concern from listening is that there are some people, and they probably wouldn’t be listening to our podcast anyway. But but there are there some people that see all these kind of pitfalls or things and, and get. So just overwhelmed that they feel like they’re going to make a mistake, and it turns them away, or turns them off. You know what I’m saying? Um, because they’re scared that they’re going to do the wrong thing, or hurt somebody’s feelings. And so they just say, well, forget it. I’m, you know, not interested. It’s not my problem, not my issue. So I’m just trying to think of how to make make it more approachable for people who feel intimidated by these suggestions. Does that make sense?
HM:
There’s a lot of, I think, resources at every level of this journey. So some of the best resources I’ve seen are for parents on how to talk to kids about disability. So they don’t like, basically like shochet little kid, when they see someone in a wheelchair, they’re curious. And just like, like, we could talk about it very openly. Like, I think it depends on where you are on this journey, there’s always something that can be helpful.
JG:
I think it’s helpful just to, in some way, relate the neurodiversity paradigm to yourself. Disability is really just a natural variation, and we’re likely to encounter it ourselves if we live long enough, or if we have a close family member with a disability at some point in our lives. And neurodiversity benefits, everyone, if society is accepting of it, because again, as I was saying, toward the beginning, it really has this way of normalizing different ways of communicating and socializing and being in the world. And I think that just allows for more understanding across differences, even if you don’t, if even if you’re not near diverse, like everyone’s different in some way. And yeah, so I just think that if we can bring it back to ourselves and recognize that, like, you’re not just helping disabled people. And actually, it makes the world better for everyone, if disabled people are fully participants in it.
LB:
That’s a great, great, great point. That’s, that’s a great way to, to that. That’s wonderful. I agree. 100, you know, 100%, right. I think we got to all your tips. Jacqueline, I’m not a you know, we got talking about everything, did we miss anything that you wanted to talk about?
JG:
Um, I guess I’ll just give a final word of advice. So change is never going to come to enable a society if disabled voices are the only ones demanding justice and asserting their right to dignity, and being seen as of equal worth. And so don’t come in, you know, acting like you can fix everything. But come alongside disabled people do with and not for them. Listen to their voices. And again, it’s okay to make mistakes, and expect that the journey is going to not always be smooth. But you’re going to learn a lot about yourself in the process. And it really just all comes back to don’t put all of the problem on the shoulders of the people who are minoritized. As non disabled people, we really need to recognize our own power and privilege and consider how we can use that to make shifts rather than expecting disabled people to do all the work.
HM:
That’s so true. And I think that’s such a great place to wrap this conversation up. So how can we find out more about you and how can we follow you and your work because you are just such a wealth of information?
JG:
Yeah, so you can follow my personal Instagram which I do a lot of advocacy work on and that’s JacklynGerda_ot. And if you want to follow along OTs for Neurodiversity, that is neurodiversity_ot on Instagram. We also have a Facebook page and then B3 Coffee is at B3coffee on Instagram, and Facebook. Thank you so much for having me. It’s it’s been an awesome conversation and Hayley, it feels like forever ago that we were at the best buddies leadership conference to go.
HM:
It’s been so long it feels like to and I’m so glad that I met you there because it was just like, you’re the perfect person to me. It’s like, Oh, my God, like a neurotypical person who gets it. It was like such a like, mind blowing moment for me that I had to do and I knew I had to get you to be on the show at some point. So for the rest of us, please follow Jacqueline and her amazing work. And you can also check out differentbrains.org follow them on Twitter and Instagram @DiffBrains and look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me. You can find me @haleymossart on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram or at haleymoss.net.
LB:
I can be found at CFIexperts.com please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes. And don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going.
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
