Mentoring | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 131
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IN THIS EPISODE:
(AUDIO – 27 mins) In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts discuss mentoring: how to be a mentor, and how to find one.
For more about the Different Brains Mentorship Program, click here.
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Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com
Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:
HALEY MOSS (HM):
Hello, and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Haley Moss, and author, attorney, artists. And I’m also autistic. I feel very lucky that every time that we come on the air, I get to share the Spectrumly Speaking stage with the best co host. And I think now it’s time for her to introduce herself to you.
DR LORI BUTTS (LB):
Good morning. I’m Lori Butts, and I’m a psychologist and an attorney.
HM:
How are you?
LB:
I’m good. How are you?
HM:
Well, before we got started, I think we were chatting about how our listeners may or may not be aware that we had a slight hiccup in our scheduling and hiatus because your friend Haley over here had COVID, and it was just as terrible as everyone says that.
LB:
They aren’t lying.
HM:
They’re really not. And at first, I was like, Okay, I had a sore throat, this is nothing for me to really freak out about. And I had to present the next morning. And I was like, okay, my throat still hurts. This is going to be fine, but it hurts really badly. And I’m like, How is this gonna work? And I somehow sleep during the morning, put on, like, a little bit of makeup to look like I didn’t die essentially. Don’t know how I got through it. And less than an hour later, I started getting all of these body aches and stuff and like, well, probably should take a test because it’s not just a sore throat. And there you had it, and then came like the high fever and the chills and more body aches. I’m like, no, no, no. And then it morphed into some strange, cold like symptoms and like, just let me go home. Let me leave. Let me leave this version of sick, like hell, because that’s what it felt like. And I was alone. And I’m like, I don’t like this. But at least I didn’t give the gift that keeps on giving. Hopefully, I don’t think I infected anyone else because I still was alone.
LB:
Wow. Well, that’s that’s a very good positive thing.
HM:
I tried not to give the gift that keeps on giving that nobody actually wants.
LB:
Nobody wants to know nobody wants. But everybody has. Yeah, it’s it’s rampid right now. But I’m glad you’re on the other side of it. It sounds like
HM:
Yes. So we are here today. And getting back to having a transition to just life, I guess. I feel like that’s where I’m at.
LB:
Well, that’s a good place to be back back in the groove of things that say sit back in the group.
HM:
So we have a very interesting topic for today plan we’re going guestless, which I always am convinced every time this happens, I get to learn a lot from you, Dr. Butts. And I think that is the same for our listeners as they get to kind of sit in on me learning stuff. But maybe today might be a little bit different because of our topic,
LB:
I think so I think I’m gonna get to learn from you today.
HM:
That always sounds intimidating. So today, we’re talking about mentors and people who inspire us. And I don’t always love this idea of talking about people who inspire us because I think it’s something that happens to me being told that I’m an inspiration a lot as so many autistic and disabled people often get told, and we get told it not because of stuff we’ve actually done. But because somehow we’re just quote unquote brave enough to exist with the brains and bodies we do in public and actually do things that we want to and that other people seem to do sometimes a little bit effortlessly. It’s kind of strange. And I never quite understand sometimes, like, I don’t know, I don’t think I’m being called an inspiration because I did something really cool so much is that you’re like, Oh, well autistic people can actually like become lawyers. It’s like, well, yeah, we could do whatever we want. And we set our minds to it just overcoming ableism as the big thing going on here. So I wish you a little strange and we have the inspiration, conversation, but mentorship, I have lots of feelings. And that’s where I want to learn to because I feel like professionally, it is very hard to find good mentors. And I don’t know if you’ve had that experience too. But I think especially for neurodivergent folks, because people think we’re strange. They don’t understand us we communicate differently, or they don’t want to learn a little bit more to really commit to it properly, or be able to help us or realize what help we need.
LB:
Yeah, that was a lot packed into one sentence. But yeah, that’s, that’s interesting, because I you know, in preparation for this, I was thinking about, you know, mentors that I’ve had and it’s very few and far between I’m so I am not, I think it across the board my experience, I don’t know about other people. But my experience, it’s it’s difficult to find a good mentor. And that’s a whole skill set that that lots of people don’t, don’t have. And so I can, from that kind of assume that to then be a mentor to somebody who’s neurodivergent would also be a little more rare and challenging for the person to do. So.
HM:
It’s really hard. And I think a lot about this, especially with young people. So people who are early career or teenagers even, especially, because think about how a lot of neurodivergent youth end up getting connected within their communities and making friends, they end up joining these types of programs that encourage friendships between them and non disabled people. And those friendships. Kind of there’s a caveat to it, almost like the neurotypical is my join these programs receive community service hours, in, for instance, like I grew up in the Jewish community, a lot of folks might do it to get their hours for a Bar Mitzvah as their project. And that’s something I really kind of take issue with, because friendship and mentorship is something that shouldn’t come with strings attached early. But that’s just my own little thing that I feel a little bit sensitive about. But I think a lot of us, we ended up getting mentored or we get friends. And especially I think a lot of us are prone to making friends when we’re teenagers. And younger, this was something that was really true for me who are older than us. So we do want that mentorship right away. Like when I got to high school, the first friend that I made, was at least a year ahead of me. And I immediately was like latching on to this person, like a big sister type role. And I don’t know if that’s what she wanted. But that was immediately what I wanted, because I was like, I felt safer that I did with my own same age peers. And when I was also in school, I’d also befriend a lot of the younger students, because I got to take on that mentor role. And I always felt safer in the mentor role than the mentee role for some reason, because I think I always tried to give what I didn’t have. And I realize I’m still, I still mentor plenty of people. And I’m always happy to give advice and time, especially to neurodivergent early career and law students and lawyers of all ages who might be discovering that they’re neurodivergent, or that they might be in law school, and they’re going through this stuff like I always want to help people. And I don’t think that’s something that most people experience or that they do. I don’t know, it’s just interesting to think about, like, how do we effectively and safely make these relationships, especially it’s and so often, when we’re young, they come with caveats.
LB:
Yeah, that’s a that’s, again, a lot packed into that…
HM:
Not naming names here on organizations that I think do that sometimes or inadvertently promote that, because I don’t think that’s the intention whatsoever.
LB:
Yeah, that’s a that’s a complicated issue, that’s for sure.
HM:
I told you, I’d have lots of feelings.
LB:
It’s good. I like all of your feelings. And, you know, this isn’t, you know, this isn’t an easy situation. Because, you know, do you look for a mentor to somebody just come into your life and develop as a mentor? You know, there’s certain programs, you know, like in the Florida Psychological Association, we’re constantly trying to get seasoned, meaning older psychologists to mentor early career professionals and things like that, but…
HM:
We have that, you know, we have that to illegal, like, my favorite event that I ever went to. And I went to it not when I was a law student, but I went when I was a first and second year lawyer, is one of the Bar Association’s does this speed mentoring, kind of networking event, it’s a lot like speed dating, you meet these law students, and they meet with lawyers at tables for like five minutes each. And they talk to you about like their students about like their practice area and stuff that the students are interested in. And then they switch and it goes on for like an hour or two hours. And then everyone writes like, who they liked, basically kind of like speed dating, so then they can help find a mentor, right? And every lawyer gets somebody, we got it, you get at least one law student. And I remember feeling like I needed the mentors more than the law students. First and foremost, I wish I was the one who got to interview somebody to talk to you right and make a friend like that. But I got assigned a first year law student, and I’m surprised I got assigned anybody, honestly because I was the only first year lawyer here. And I was also the only lawyer who is at that point, just about if not, I did I don’t remember the exact timing of this, but I had already left my law firm job. Okay. Gotcha. So I already was like, I’m non traditional in a year, what do I do, I get matched with this first year law student. And I reached out to her immediately because I was like, so excited that I can help this person who, based on what I understood, was straight out of college. So she was maybe 22, or 23. And I was like, Oh, I can help this young person I can shepherd them through because we all know the first year of law school is just miserable. And I was like, Oh, I’m so glad I can, like help this person or stuff. And I’m like, let’s get coffee. Like, I tried to be super friendly about it. And I never heard back from her, and then everything shut down with COVID. Now, I was like, I hope you’re okay. I know, it’s probably strange pivoting to having zoom School of Law. Like I was very nice about it and very friendly, just like I have now. And I barely knew this kid. I talked her for five minutes. And I was like, we can meet over zoom. Like, I’m happy to be here. And I never heard from her ever. And I was like, Okay, I’m not mentoring this young person. And I felt real. And I thought it was an indictment on me, like, maybe I’m bad at mentoring people. But I really tried to do the right thing, right, especially because I knew zoom School of Law probably was a huge transition and scary, even though it would have been a transition, I know, I probably would have welcomed in my life, because I will stay home and not have to worry about all the other stuff that went on. But I don’t think neurotypical people felt that way. But I remember that was a big thing. Which brings me to something I think we need to talk about when it comes to mentorship. And the idea of finding mentors, or if we ask people to be our mentors, because we autistic people, were pretty straightforward. I think you have to have an honest conversation about communication. Absolutely. So did you ever have an assigned mentor before?
LB:
Not that I can remember.
HM:
Okay, buckle up. So I actually did have an assigned mentor when I got to law practice, because the firm insisted that everybody, okay, have a mentor, because every year there was at least one or two new associates. Okay, so the partners would get assigned at least one or two associates, we weren’t usually one, because we weren’t that big. And my assigned mentor had been in practice probably since 20 years or so. And I was really excited to learn from her. And I remember, we had to meet, we were trying to schedule time to go to lunch. And the day that we’re supposed to go to lunch comes I walk into her office, and she just like, shooed me away. And I think it’s because she’s really busy. And I wish he had told me that before then I’m like, Oh, no big deal. That’s fine. Like, we’ll just reschedule. And we never did, even if I kept following up. And I felt like I was just being a pest about it. To the point that I’m like, if you don’t have time, I wanted her to be honest with me, because I’m like, Did I do something wrong? Are you just not interested in me? Or do you just not have time? If you had told me, Haley, I would love to be able to help you. And I’m so sorry about lunch. But I genuinely just don’t have time. My caseload is x, I have family responsibilities, I have whatever, like I would have understood. I would have wanted to know you didn’t have time for me, rather than you just kind of blowing me off make me think I definitely screwed up. Like, like, as you’re honest, you don’t have if you have time, even with those teenagers, we were talking about who joined these programs, just admit to someone like I might not have all the time that you deserve, or what your intentions are really, like just be honest with people, it goes a long way. And it kind of saves us the ambiguity because with that mentorship relationship at work that was assigned to me, I remember going to my boss and telling him what had happened. And I think they were shocked. And I ended up getting reassigned that my boss ended up being my assigned mentor. And we used to go to lunch once a month. So that was interesting. Yeah. And fun. The food was always good.
LB:
That’s a good bonus.
HM:
Oh, the food was great. That was like everything. And I just remember everyone was like, you get to go to the good lunch. I do. I was I was excited about it.
LB:
So what are what is our advice for, for people to find mentors to seek out as opposed to being assigned how to?
HM:
I don’t know, because I’m still trying to figure that one out myself. I tell people all the time. Like, this is something I struggle a lot with. And yet nobody’s ever stepped up to the plate and be like you, I will adopt you. Have you asked somebody to adopt you? I don’t know if I trust someone that I don’t know if I have that relationship with to begin with if they want to like take me under their wing. But I also have learned that think about who we learned the most from and who helps us grow as human beings and it’s always not somebody that’s in your field. I think that’s something we You have to remember, Oh, that’s interesting. It’s the rigidity of somebody who’s in your field, you might not get lucky. Like, think about the people you learn the most from in your life, they probably aren’t people in your field. Hmm. Like, you can still have mentors in life, like, my aren’t people you work with professionally, I think. And I think about how there’s people that I learned from, or just the way that they inspire others to action, that they’re doing something effective that like, I want to be able to do that. Or even just people like family, like family members, or other adults that maybe have a great family life and balance there. And you think that’s something I want to learn more from and possibly emulate someday? Like, think about all these different relationships in our lives. And we do have that learning whether or not we realize it.
LB:
And so what you’re saying is, maybe we need to redefine what a mentor is, because it’s not where you’re learning the most is in a non traditional, informal relationship, as opposed to Okay, now you are my mentor. Yeah, that’s, that takes some, some creative thinking and some, you know, acknowledgement that you need to learn from anybody. Yeah. And it’s, and it’s in places where you’re not not expecting it to be.
HM:
You truly never know.
LB:
Right? Do people approach you at this point to mentor them?
HM:
They usually, a lot of people come to me with questions and stuff, and I know that they’re looking for it, but honestly, I don’t have the time. I also need that stuff myself. And I get overwhelmed, because I don’t know how much is expected out of those relationships. So a lot of the times I almost kind of shut down.
LB:
So that’s where the communication is important. Right?
HM:
Yeah. Like I find it a lot more difficult than it probably should be.
LB:
Yeah, no, it is. It’s a big responsibility. And it is, it is, again, setting expectations. Like, you know, I have time for one lunch a month, you know, or, you know, it’s, I don’t have time for an ongoing thing, or what I think it goes back to what you talked about the beginning is communication and appropriate communication and saying, Look, if this is your expectation, I don’t I can’t meet that expectation. You know, maybe some somebody else could, this is what I can do.
HM:
Yeah. And what I also do is, if I don’t have answers to questions and stuff, this is something I’ve learned throughout my life and career as well find someone who knows the answers and tell them who knows the answers. Because someone might be like, think about even the guests that we’ve had on Spectrumly. Like, I think that we’ve had great conversations about things that obviously are not my expertise or yours. So if someone’s asking me questions about, say, relationships, I might think of a past guests that we’ve had and be like, you know, this person knows all about this. This is literally what they do for a living, go talk to them. And I think that’s also part of mentorship and networking is also knowing when you don’t know the answers, or you don’t have the answers.
LB:
Right.
HM:
And I think many times I have punted to people who know more than me, because I do not want to admit that I know everything because I don’t
LB:
That’s true. That’s true. And we need I mean, so, you know, we have a good place with Different Brains with that is mentoring individual young adults to adults who are neurodiverse and learning in a mentorship kind of way, how to gain social skills to get jobs, how to network to get jobs, how to find out what jobs would be interesting and things like that. So, we do we do work with a group that you know, touts mentorship, and, you know — not the professional, not the same way you and I have been talking about like somebody’s your law firm or whatever, but, but helping people gain skills and what’s the word I’m looking for? exposure to different types of, of, so, you know, they do the media work and editing, they do, you know, shadowing people in different careers and things like that to see what it is that they could be pursuing and be interested in the future. So they’re programs like that, that that that’s you know, that’s that’s their wheelhouse, and that’s what they’re good at is providing that kind of mentorship as opposed to, you know, it sounds like both you And I have difficulty spending, adequate time and energy, doing mentorship on a one to one basis.
HM:
But also just meeting people I think is part of the game. And sometimes I’m good at the intermittent questions or trying to give you connections who can help you because I want you to have people who are more helpful than they, what do you play? They can’t give you what you deserve.
LB:
Oh, got it. Right, and being able to connect others with those resources? Absolutely. Yeah, that’s huge.
HM:
Definitely you want people to be connected and fulfilled.
LB:
Right, and you are meeting a lot of people, you’ve got a big social media, presence and things like that. So I would assume that, that you’re one of those people that can help make those connections. And that in and of itself is mentorship. You know, while it’s not like, okay, a typical traditional mentor / mentee, but that’s, that’s, uh, you know, that’s mentorship. Yeah, directing people to where they can find resources and things like that. And you, you know, a lot of people obviously, through, you know, and we know, a lot of people through spectrum really, were, you know, like, we’re every episode, we’re directing them to somebody’s website to get more information. And all of our, all of the people that we interview, always say, you know, please directly contact me. I mean, everybody’s so generous with their, you know, with their experiences.
HM:
It always makes me happy. Yes,
LB:
Yeah. And there’s so many positive people and role models, to, again, like you said, like a non traditional, where you’re learning from in a non traditional kind of way? Yeah, you’re learning in different relationships and different ways.
HM:
I think so too. And I think realizing there’s no one size fits all approach is probably a good thing for all of us. I think when you when you look at other people’s journeys, and something worked well for them, and it might not work for you, you kind of get like, I’m just bad at this, or maybe it’s just not for me. And it’s not that something’s wrong with you, per se.
LB:
Right. And again, what this is, it can be redefined. So what you’re good at is connecting people knowing people saying, oh, this person does this. And so and that’s mentorship as opposed to Okay, once a week, we’re gonna have a meeting about what do you want in your career? You know.
HM:
I mean, you can do that. But I, it’s not my favorite thing in the world.
LB:
Right. And so and that’s, it’s not a one size fits all, what a mentor, what what a mentor is. And I think you and
HM:
I think recognizing that it’s good for all of us.
LB:
Exactly, exactly. recognizing it and communicating that are the most important things is what I think we’re we’re getting at, and communicating the expectations and communicating what you’re able to do. And if you’re not able to meet those expectations. Oh, I know, you know, different brains has something that you know, you can do every single day.
HM:
You want people to have that those resources, right? And not feel weird about it either like that. There are spaces I think, and a lot of other neurodivergent adults and whatnot, who want to help you.
LB:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
HM:
And I find myself saying that all the time. Like, I want to help you. I don’t know if I can help you directly. But I’m sure that’s something that I make or put out that there will be a way to
LB:
Exactly.
HM:
At least I tried to be that person. I want to be the person that I’m I want it to be. I still stand by that. And I think that’s all all of us can do. And whether if you’re mentoring someone to that you’re just trying your best. And I think keeping that human element to it is something that gets lost on a lot of us. So try your best to just remember your humanity is top here.
LB:
Right. And I think it sounds to me that you put that you put too much expectations on what you should be doing and mentoring and you actually do provide a lot — you’re very accessible. And that’s that’s all — you know, that’s that’s important.
HM:
I try my best. Yeah. I think that’s all any of us can really do, though. Right? I think that’s a great note to have this conversation kind of wrap up. A little bit two is that we’re all just trying to do the best that we can when it comes to this. And it’s not always easy. And it does require some communication and also adjusting your expectations.
LB:
Right. Right and getting on the same page with your expectations.
HM:
Yeah, that’s something I’m still learning to because I still want to believe the best in everything. But I also don’t want to be a complete cynic.
LB:
Well, and adjusting your expectations of yourself
HM:
to I know, I’m a perfectionist I want to be I hold myself to a really high standard of everything.
LB:
We need to work on that.
HM:
Yes, we do.
LB:
And then you can mentor other people to say, look, I used to think all I had to do is be perfect now. Just the best that I can is, is definitely good enough.
HM:
Is that your best is good enough? Yes, it is. And I think that’s a great note for all of us to end this conversation is that your best is good enough? Yeah, absolutely. And if you want to learn more, I know that we mentioned that different brains does a great job as well at mentoring neurodivergent folks and young people as well. So if you’re interested in learning more about everything, be sure to check out differentbrains.org and check out their Twitter and Instagram @DiffBrains. And don’t forget to look for them also on Facebook. If you’re looking for me, please say hello at Haleymoss.com Or on all major social media. I can’t wait to connect with you.
LB:
I can be found at CFIexperts.com. Please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes and don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going.
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
