A Conversation With Autienelle, with Lauren Melissa Ellzey | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 134
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IN THIS EPISODE:
In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts speak with Lauren Melissa Ellzey. Lauren Melissa Ellzey, or Autienelle, is an autistic self-advocate, social justice influencer, and fiction author. Through writing and presenting, she seeks to cultivate acceptance for the autistic community. Even more, she engages across lines of difference, highlighting the inequitable systems that oppress queer, BIPOC, and disabled folks. In all, she hopes to co-create a society where autistics nurture autistics as we strive toward true inclusion.
For more about Lauren Melissa’s work:
https://laurenmelissaellzey.com/
http://instagram.com/autienelle
To purchase Lauren Melissa’s book The Boy in the Window: https://linktr.ee/laurenmelissaellzey
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Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com
Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:
HALEY MOSS (HM):
Hello, and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Haley Moss, and author, and attorney in artist and advocate, and I’m autistic. I feel very lucky to spend time here at Spectrumly. And as usual, I share our little platform with the greatest of all co-hosts — come say hello.
DR LORI BUTTS (LB):
Hi, I’m Dr. Lori Butts. I’m a psychologist and an attorney.
HM:
How are you doing?
LB:
Good, how are you?
HM:
I’m hanging in there. I feel like time just blurs together. And I was talking to a friend today after about a month because this kind of happens to me where I lose track of time. And I realized I’m not always good at saying hi, how are you to my friends? And it’s like, let’s catch up. And I was like, yeah, she’s like, so what have I missed? Since I haven’t spoken to you in about a month and I’m like, Ooh, boy. A lot has changed in my life in about a month.
LB:
It will do that.
HM:
Like I went on vacation, I had a birthday. Work has been absolutely hectic. We before the show, we started we started talking about a show on Netflix called “Extraordinary Attorney Woo”, and it’s about an autistic attorney and having to answer lots and lots of questions about that from the international community has been fascinating and enlightening. But that has taken over my life over the last month to an extent. There’s just so much that happens in the little world of Haley that having to explain it to a friend that I haven’t talked to like, Oh no, this is going to make me feel like a bad friend. Because I feel like I should have told you some of this as it was happening.
LB:
Life gets full and complicated. So you shouldn’t feel bad about it. It just happens.
HM:
It does. And I’m trying to learn that because I am not always good at staying in touch with people and sometimes they have to make that extra effort. It does not make me a bad friend.
LB:
It absolutely does not, absolutely does not.
HM:
I feel like that’s a whole other thing we can unpack in one of our usual guestless episodes of: you are not a bad friend because sometimes your poor little neurodivergent brain does not executive function and you don’t put calendar reminders to reach out to your friends every couple of weeks.
LB:
Yes, and hopefully as you go through life, nobody would ever hold that against anybody as a friend because it’s — everybody’s life gets pretty full. Time goes by very quickly as you fill it up.
HM:
It does things just move but thankfully today we are not guestless and we are not unpacking friendship as our theme. I think that’s a good thing for both of us right? In instead, we are so lucky and so excited to be welcoming somebody to the specialty speaking podcast we are welcoming Lauren Melissa Ellzey. And if you don’t know her, Lauren Melissa Ellzey. You might also know her as Autienelle on social media is an autistic self advocate social justice influencer and fiction author. Through writing and presenting she seeks to cultivate acceptance for the Autistic community. Even more, she engages across lines of difference, highlighting the inequitable systems that oppress queer, bipoc and disabled folks. In all, she hopes to co create a society where Autistics nurture Autistics, as we strive towards true inclusion. Welcome to the show.
LAUREN MELISSA ELLZEY (LME):
Hi, thanks for having me here.
HM:
I am so excited that you’re here. I know before we got started, I was talking about how we get guests every once in a while that just totally light up my heart with fangirl feelings. And you are one of them. Because I’ve obviously been following you on Instagram and Twitter for a long time. But since I am very aware that folks here at spectrally might be new to you. Would you be okay with sharing with us how you became involved in the autism community?
LME:
Definitely. So even though my mom kind of figured out that I’m autistic, by the time I was three years old, I never was formally diagnosed with autism until I was 23. So that’s about eight years ago now. And it was a big answer for me in my life. I’d always felt different. I think we hear that narrative a lot from many later diagnosed autistic individuals. I always felt very different. I felt oftentimes broken, and I was really scared about my social encounters with people and I thought it was something I had to change about myself. And then I discovered I discovered my autism. And when I received my diagnosis, I felt empowered in so many ways. And I was able to shed those feelings of inadequacy and lean into my new not entirely new since it had been who I am my whole life, but my new identity that I had become aware of. At the same time, I felt really resentful, or bitter, that my diagnosis had come later, because I thought I would have really benefited from being connected to the autistic community at a younger age and recognizing more about myself as an autistic person. And that resentment, those feelings, they were bubbling up in me, pretty strongly. I had been told by my psychologists that one of the reasons why I have not — one of the many reasons — I had not received a diagnosis until later was because I developed coping skills on my own, that mask my autism when I was a child. However, those coping skills, they crumbled very quickly when I reached adulthood, and I could no longer mask and eventually, through the years that led to my diagnosis. And that frustrated me a lot. But I decided to, in a way, sublimate that frustration, and think through some of my coping skills, they are okay, they are autistic centered, and they do help me. And I wonder if I could share some of those coping skills with other autistic people. And if I could also connect with autistic people, and they could share with me how to be authentically myself. So I reached out to the artistic community via Instagram, and started posting different things that I did in my day to cope with being artistic in a world that is not very supportive. And through that, I became connected to the community and I am where I am today.
LB:
It’s a little shifting gears. It’s not as clean transition, but can you tell our audience about the work that you do during consultation and professional development to educators?
LME:
Certainly. So, since my diagnosis, I have had multiple career shifts, because I was seeking a career that would support me and my different needs as an autistic person. And so I used to be an educator, and a teacher. And then I became a librarian. And then, through my self advocacy work online, I wound up being connected to an organization that provides consultation, and professional development to K through 12. Educators in order to foster inclusive classrooms for autistic learners. My role in that organization is to meet with educators, administrators, sometimes SLPs, OTs, social workers and guidance counselors to provide information to provide education around autism, and to provide support implementing best practices that enhance the classroom into a space that is safer for neurodivergent individuals. And there’s a lot of change that I’ve seen occur through this time, like because you know, I was a student before in the classroom, being really impacted by my sensory environments. I used to have migraines, two to three times a week. And I used to when I was younger, I encounter meltdowns every day after school. None of my teachers saw that because I was masking and hiding the pain and discomfort I was in all day. And I was trying desperately to socialize in a way that everyone thought was appropriate, but was really not true to who I was. And now that I’m in this field, I feel like I’m almost helping my younger self in some way.
LB:
So it sounds like you’ve seen, and you’ve been a part of a lot of progress toward inclusion and education.
LME:
Yeah, I’m not alone in it. Thankfully, I have wonderful colleagues and also other organizations globally that are doing similar work. But I’ve seen a lot of change and a lot of progress. And I think what we’re really doing now is trying to educate schools about the changes that have occurred in the research field around autism. You know, there’s been so many changes over the last decades, from the way that we support autistic individuals, children and adults, for example, autistic folks used to be institutionalized almost immediately. And of course, institutionalization still happens. But this conversation is opening, just which is made clear by the fact that we’re even talking about inclusion classrooms. I think, another big change that is happening that will benefit all children. But my heart, of course, is in neuro divergence is the classroom environment, and the fluorescent lights, and the bright colors, and the loud noise and all these different sensory things that can be so overwhelming for children in school, folks are having conversations about that new wave, we have a way to go. But I see a future I see a path forward. And to me to be able to see that path at all is progress.
HM:
All of this just makes me so happy and grateful for your work. Something kind of to go off of this thought, I love that you talk about education in schools, but you also do a lot of education. Through social media. I’ve seen your pages that I’ve learned a lot from the words that you’ve used, and how you’ve described experiences that I never knew how to best describe. And I’ve also seen you in other online classrooms such as, for instance Blair Imani’s, and social media is really an important platform when it comes to advocating for ourselves and our community. And I love that you’re truly using your voice to highlight intersectionality and inclusion in that space. What have been some of those pros and cons of advocating on social media?
LME:
Oh, my social media is such a wonderful and terrifying place at the same time. There are many pros and many cons. For me, I find there to be more pros than cons, which is probably why I’m still doing self advocacy work on social media. But I would say one of the biggest pros is having access to community. Autistic folks we’re everywhere, but can sometimes be very hard to find in person. And online, I have access to so many others, who, of course, are not exactly like me. But we have similarities that bring us together, that I have friends offline now through I met online autistic friends, and I didn’t think I would ever really be engaging with same age peers who are autistic, and my offline life. And I was gifted that through social media. I also think that social media is a wonderful place for conversations of intersectionality to come up. I, I feel that it can be very difficult in person sometimes to talk about intersectionality and intersectional identities. For example, I am a black, multiracial, queer, autistic woman. And I don’t really get to go up to people and shake their hand and say that to them. Although some of my identities are apparent, and some of them are not so apparent. But online, we can have very easy and quick conversations. Not quick but quickly started conversations about intersectionality and inclusion that I think are a little bit trickier to have in person sometimes. Of course, that means that sometimes online, things can get heated, because we are talking about very intense things.
At the same time, I’m really grateful for those conversations, because even as I self advocate on social media, I’m also learning from others. And I’ve changed so drastically since 2016, when I started advocating online, and I know a huge part of that change is what from what I have learned from other self advocates online. At the same time, social media has the word social in it. And so it takes a lot of social energy to self advocate on social media. I think sometimes people don’t realize how much social energy goes into having conversations online. It can be just as much as in person interaction. And for me as an autistic person, I can burn out from that. So I have to really monitor my social media and intake and think through when I’ve got to put the phone down or Are when I’ve got to dive off of social media and dive into my passionate interests to recharge are just taken out. I’m a big number. And another thing that people might not realize, when they when this conversation first comes up that can be a con about advocating on social media is that social media operates through algorithms, right? We’ve heard that with algorithms make people want to turn social media into a game of numbers. But self advocacy is not a game of numbers. And it can be very concerning for me, identity wise, when I feel pushed into doing certain inauthentic things, in order to grow a platform. That’s not why I started my account. And so I often have to reground myself into thinking less about likes, or thinking less about numbers and growth, but staying true to myself authentically. That’s been a challenge at times. But it’s a challenge that I take on headfirst for my mental health.
LB:
If you were going to be giving advice to someone that’s just beginning to share their voice, well, what would you tell them?
LME:
I would say start with your own experiences. I don’t think I’m the only person who says this. I’ve seen other self advocates say that as well. But you know, since autistic individuals, we’re very unique, we also share a neuro type that we are we have our unique personalities. And no two autistic persons, or to autistic people are the same. It’s really important to speak from first person. And even if we want to speak in generalities, making it clear, when we speak in generalities that we’re not saying everyone, every autistic person experiences XYZ. And so speaking your own story, I mean, that’s self advocacy. So I would say, share your moon, we share our voices, it’s so powerful to share our unique voice and our experiences. And at the same time, go into to research, go look at what’s happening in the field of research. And that can be through books, through articles, in different elements like that. And take time to draw that comparison and of self to the research and see what feels authentic, and see how we can talk about what this research looks like in real life. Research can get really uppity and not sound human at all. But autism isn’t a field of research. It’s a world full of people, we are humans, we are people. And so using your unique voice, to make research real, is so powerful. So that’s something I would say. And then lastly, to anyone who is wanting to just to begin to share about their artistic experiences on social media. I say take breaks from it, and never feel like you need permission to take breaks. I think sometimes when we’re running a self advocacy platform, or we’ve been doing, we’ve been doing something like that for so long, and feel like we have to keep going and going and going and if we take a break, we have to tell everyone, I’m sorry. We don’t need to apologize for taking breaks. And we actually don’t even need to tell anyone we’re taking a break, just log off and log on to self-regulating.
HM:
I have been kind of just sitting here and nodding along to everything that you’ve said for the last two questions. So thank you. That was probably not what I was planning on saying we’re like, wow, you have so much insight. And I feel like you were so good at that. looking inward. I think even knowing that you can log off and you don’t have to apologize for taking care of yourself or being yourself is such a message that especially as a younger autistic, I wish that I had I feel like I’m still learning like, Hey, you don’t have to be superhuman and please all the people all the time, whether it’s online or offline. So I just wanted to personally thank you for that because I feel like that’s something I needed even at this point in my life as well let alone my younger self.
LME:
Definitely. I once took a break for a year. It wasn’t like I was like I’m going to take a year long break. I actually just like stopped and then came back and it happened to be like a full year and I never told anyone I just like stopped posting I just I went and lived my life. And then one day I logged back on and I made a post. And it was very sweet. People just said, Oh, welcome back. Hi. And I was like, Hi, I’m back. And I just went right back into it. We didn’t even have to have a conversation. Where were you? We’re happy you’re here.
HM:
It’s like happy you’re here. Glad to see you again. Because we’ve missed you. And we don’t realize we missed. We missed you until we stopped seeing stuff. And I was like, Oh my God. Yes. I love this person. I love their work. Social media too, is I realized that people just do disappear because they have offline lives and things in or burns them out. And they come back and I’m like, I hope you’re okay. But also, I’m just so happy you’re here. I think I get that way about a lot of influencers and a lot of creators. It’s like, Oh, I’m just glad to see this back.
LME:
That’s community.
HM:
That is community that even if you’re not like best friends are really know someone personally, you feel like you know them. I think that’s, I feel like a lot of people on social media kind of if I don’t have an actual relationship with them, it feels like they’re friends in your head almost, for lack of a better description. Like you feel like you know them, you trust them, you trust the content that they put out you. You care. And even though they might not know you, you obviously care. So I think that’s the best way to describe it almost. It’s like they’re your friends, but they’re not your friend. So I was like a different in my head.
LME:
It’s a fun way to think about it.
HM:
Like, what would this person think of this situation? Based on what I’ve learned from them? I feel like that’s the best way to describe it in a way, at least for me. And I have to switch gears and ask about you being an author and for you to share a little bit more with us about your book “Boy at the Window”?
LME:
Oh, I love talking about “Boy at the Window”. Yeah writing is something that I’ve always been passionate about writing and fiction. It was actually something that made me question whether or not I was autistic before I received my diagnosis because there’s an autism stereotype that we don’t like fiction.
HM:
I happen to love fiction.
LME:
So many of us do. But I’ve always been drawn to fictional worlds. And it’s been a place for me to express my passionate interests. Although people might not always recognize that if they were to read any of my stories. So in February, my debut young adult fiction novel was published, “Boy at the Window”, through Bold Strokes Books. And “Boy at the Window” talks a lot about neurodiversity. There is no reference to autism in it, which to me is very exciting, because I wanted to kind of crack open this idea that neurodiversity is only autism, and ADHD, and talk about neurodiversity, in terms of there being diversity in human brains, right? I feel like we’re on the same page here about that in this chat. So it follows my protagonist, Daniel, who is a 16 year old boy who has been diagnosed with depersonalization derealization disorder. And he also has maladaptive daydreaming. Those are very powerful pathologizing sounding terms, that that’s what’s on his record. And he, it the story itself covers some pretty intense themes such as suicide and emotional trauma, that he copes through many of the things that he has blocked from his past by engaging in a daydreaming world through Neverland from Peter and Wendy from JM Barrie’s, Peter and Wendy, Peter Pan. And the story follows him after he is released from a mental health hospital. And he returns to school, a new school and he tries to figure out how to navigate life. After so many life changing things have happened. And he joins a cross country team and meets a boy his age, that might be the person to lead him out of Neverland or the point person to join him there. So that’s what the story is about.
LB:
You’ve told us so much Lauren Melissa, is there anything else you’re working on?
LME:
Um, yeah, actually. I am finishing up my second young adult novel as we speak these days, called “Gimmicks and Glamour”, I don’t think I’ve told anyone that title before.
HM:
We’re special. So thank you. Special not like you know and infantilizing way. I just feel privileged that you shared that with us.
LME:
Thanks. And it follows a young, high school girl who is biracial, black and white. And she may or may not be seeing fairies all around her all the time. And she may or may not have been taking the blame for all of the Havoc they carry. The only person who knows she sees the fairies is her best friend Charisse who might be playing alone or just playing with her feelings. And in the end, the protagonist, Ashley, winds up trying to save people that she claims to hate classmates who have been putting her down and in some ways, bullying her, trying to save them from an evil that no one else seems to see. Or is that evil really there at all? Yeah, so I’m working on that. And that will be coming out next year in the summer. And then I’m also really excited in terms of autism things to be in this October 23rd, with the Stanford Neurodiversity Summit, on a panel about teenage and young adult autistic voices. So I’m really looking forward to that summit.
HM:
You are always up to something. So because of this, we have to ask just so everybody knows: how can the audience find out more about everything you’re doing and keep up with you?
LME:
Well, you can always follow me on social media: @Autienelle on Instagram, and Twitter. And you can also find me at LaurenMelissaEllzy.com. And I’m always just direct message or an email away. So just shoot me a line. And I’d love to connect with anyone.
HM:
That sounds absolutely fantastic. And we have a segment coming up. And a lot of this also something that felt super important because you posted a Twitter thread about a couple days ago or so that really stuck out at me, and I know stuck out to the rest of us as well. So we’ve been talking a lot about advocating for change in public settings, such as schools and education and on social media. But we also want to switch gears just a little bit. And talk about that day to day self advocacy that we all do, and maybe offer some advice and guidance to those of us who might still be figuring that out and developing skills in that arena. So Lauren Melissa, you recently posted a thread about self advocacy scripts and how you utilize those. So what I thought was really interesting is that there are folks who look at some of these scripts as masking and other ways that we’re able to advocate for ourselves at the same time. I loved this thread, and it just really sticks out to me. So can you share a little bit about how you utilize self advocacy scripts as a way to advocate for yourself?
LME:
To me, self advocacy scripts are kind of like turning scripting on its head and getting it to do what it should have been doing all along, which is helping autistic folks get our needs met. So scripting is often so often used to try to, you know, force, or maybe we feel forced as autistic folks to, you know, speak and act and behave, I guess, in a way that seems quote unquote “less autistic”, but the self advocacy script, instead of scripting words, to say, to have small talk conversations, or to socialize in a way that others have deemed to be more natural, which, if you’re scripting, it’s not natural. But instead of using scripting in that way, it’s to use it, to find the words to help communicate, what I’m going through and a moment that I might not be able to find, say I might be experiencing overload. Or I might be confused in a social interaction. Or I might just need help, but I can’t find the words to say it or I’m feeling too overwhelmed, to piece those words together. So by memorizing for myself, different self advocacy scripts, I can understand how to get my needs met, and how to advocate for what I need and have a variety of contexts. So that might be in a casual conversation where somebody is speaking very quickly. And instead of me just trying to keep up and fall back on scripts to sound funny, or to sound like I understand what’s going on, I can use my script: “Hey, I’m actually a little confused. Could you repeat that?” And give myself you know, empower myself, I should say, to to speak up. But knowing what phrase I’m going to use allows me to feel empowered in those situations. Or I might say, when it’s really loud, and I’m feeling disoriented and overwhelmed, and might say: “I’m feeling overwhelmed right now. Can you please help me find a quiet space?” And those are words, that would be very difficult for me to find if I hadn’t sat down, thought through. Okay, these certain scenarios occurred to me personally, in my experiences as an autistic person, and I need backup in those instances, and that backup is this self advocacy script.
LB:
Oh, my gosh, yeah.
HM:
I feel like the only time I’ve ever done the equivalent of this, or at least thought of it as a script was at work, because I used it as a way to be able to disclose without always disclosing. But I think there’s so many jobs or so many situations I’ve been in professionally or while in school that I just never felt comfortable talking too much about my autism. So I’d use the self advocacy scripts in a sense of like, it’s really helpful when you give me clear instructions, or I work best when XYZ happens. Like, I feel like having a name for that is really helpful. And realizing that’s what I’ve been doing. But I didn’t have the word for it. That’s why when you were saying, and I was talking to you earlier about your social media is like you are able to put things into words that happen. And I didn’t know that there were words to do that. And I love that idea that were script, turning scripting on its head, like that’s really what it is. And I just never thought of it that way. So again, I feel like I am just here in gratitude, honestly. But I love that we can use this in all sorts of different situations. And I hope that the holistic people kind of learned something from this and maybe can help teach this because something that you mentioned about scripts before is that we were being taught a lot of scripts to make other people feel comfortable. Not that how can we advocate for ourselves at the same time.
LME:
Exactly. And I think that, you know, in my work with education, I think it’s really important to talk about self advocacy scripts, because we have a lot of students, you know, who are, they’re going through different services in school, like related services. And sometimes the idea is like, Okay, well, we need to teach them how to socialize, or we need to teach them all these social skills. And I would like there to be a moment of pause. And a moment of saying, Well, you know, instead of that, why don’t why don’t we start with building self awareness. And then from that self awareness, building self advocacy scripts for students to be able to communicate their needs, and then maybe we can figure out what more of these individual students want to learn themselves. By trying to just change people using scripts. It, it might look like it works for a year, or it might look like it works out until they graduate. You know, but autistic children become autistic adults. And we want to be fostering a world where autistic folks can feel empowered to self advocate for themselves. Instead of feeling disempowered. And feeling like the only way to survive is to assimilate.
HM:
I get that I feel like, there’s just a lot to think about here to my brain is just like, wow, I am so grateful for all of this. And I can’t wait to see this come in more into effect with educators. And I hope that parents get a lot out of it. Honestly, like, I feel like a lot of the times when I meet with parents, they don’t always recognize that they have a huge role in teaching their kids how to advocate in a way that’s affirming to them. And I feel like this is a huge, this could be a huge help for them. I’m not a parent, I don’t know. But I feel like a lot of parents always ask me like: self advocate always.
LME:
Right. I think it’s hard to be it’s hard to be a parent.
HM:
I’m not one so I my respect goes out to anyone who is able to do that thing.
LME:
Yeah, I’m not a parent, but I always just think of my mom. And she was the parent of an autistic child and they think about all of the misinformation she was given. I have the mixed information. So I hope that the fields, autism field can become more aligned towards autistic centered practices and better at communicating those to families.
HM:
I hope so too. And I and I think there also needs to be a cultural shift as well, not just with educators, but even the rest of IEP teams and therapists and providers to be more Autistics centered, and neurodiversity affirming overall. But I feel like that’s a conversation not everybody is ready for sometimes.
LME:
It’s a conversation, we’re currently preparing to have a feel preparation stage, we’re getting the ingredients together. And I think in you know, years to come, we’re gonna see so much change.
HM:
That makes me so hopeful. And I’m so glad that you are a huge part of this change that’s happening to and the folks that you were doing this work alongside because as you’ve mentioned before, it’s not just you. So a huge thanks not just to you, but to all of your colleagues not just where you work, but around the country and if not the globe that are fighting the good fight every day. And as I remember learning in law school people that are causing good trouble.
LME:
Thanks for causing good trouble too.
HM:
So I think that’s a great note for us to end on. So I hope that all of you are able to learn I know I’ve certainly learned a lot from Lauren Melissa today. I never like to speak for Dr. Butts, but I’m hopeful that she learned something
LB:
I learned a lot.
HM:
Okay, there we go. We have a resounding endorsement from both of us. And be sure to check out all the amazing things that Lauren Melissa is doing at her Twitter and Instagram at Autienelle and she also has an amazing new book called “Boy at the Window” and as we heard there’s going to be another book coming soon. As for the rest of us, be sure to check out differentbrains.org and check out their Twitter and Instagram at DiffBrains and don’t forget to also look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for yours truly I can be found at Hailey moz.com Or you can also say hello to me on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram and I’m happy to chat further and if you have any recommendations, feelings, etc. Always happy to have a conversation. That’s what social media is all about apparently.
LB:
And that can be found at CFIexperts.com. Please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes and don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going.
Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.
